Forum:Streamlining user welcomes

In the recent changes, you can often find people that will leave a welcome message on a new user's talk page seconds after they register. Many will often use a customized template to do this.

I find that there are a few problems with this:

We have the Wikia bot for a reason.

For those of you that don't know, the Wikia bot currently welcomes all anonymous editors after their first edit. It also can be set up to welcome registered users after their own first edit, but get this, we had to disable this feature because people insisted on doing it themselves (Wikia bot has no way of knowing if a user has already been welcomed).

We're not a meet-and-greet site where our time should be spent refreshing the recent changes to see if any new users need to be welcomed. We have a bot that is able to do that job for us, and, quite frankly, should be doing that job.

"Personal" welcomes are not really personal

The argument always seems to come up that we can't have the Wikia bot take care of welcoming because the way it does things is not "personal."

The reality is that everyone who patrols the user creation log is going to welcome a new user with a template.


 * template (n.) - A generic model or pattern from which other objects are based or derived.

Not only is there nothing personal about using a template, but a given new user would not be able to tell which was left by a human (or care, for that matter). See for yourself: the "personal" welcome, and the Wikia bot welcome.

If the end result is the same, why are we concentrating on something a bot can do?

We don't need creative variations of the same template

That particularly applies to the welcome template. In fact, being overly artistic in a welcome template can make things more confusing to a new user. This welcome message starts out by affirming the wiki's mission is to find Makarov. Yes it's thematic, but we want to keep things simple and to the point; new users should know where to go for help if they are lost, and being cool doesn't mean anything if they can't even find the help pages.

In any case, I propose that we utilize the Wikia bot for all forms of welcoming, as "personal" welcomes are not very practical. 19:28, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
Perfect idea, we should do it, especially because user welcoming can often spams the cvn channel, as well as Recent Changes, and time spent welcoming users could be spent improving mainspace pages. 19:35, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

Great idea, although the RC spam could be avoided if users marked their edits as minor by default. The bot is their for a reason, and all the user-made welcomes serve to do is spam the RC and, IMO "edit whore". 19:41, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it couldn't, minor edits still appear in RecentChanges by default. 19:43, July 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * User:Wikia is flagged as a bot and therefore won't appear in the RC by default. 20:19, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * We know that, I was commenting on how regular users can't be hidden as such. Plus, we could always use URL for welcoming as well. 20:20, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * We already have the Wikia bot for automated welcoming. 21:14, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I know, believe me, I would hate to use URL anyway. 21:17, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we all would. -- 07:40, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

The Wikia bot's welcome looks straight up beast, and it'll be automatic. Why not... 20:25, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing that bots do best. I don't see why we should waste time creating and sticking up a dozen different templates that do the same thing when a bot can automatically welcome users. --Scottie theNerd 08:08, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Umm, no thank you I rather enjoy welcoming users my self when I'm not doing other things. I've been welcoming users ever since I first edited on this wiki and have no intention of stopping. I don't see what the big deal is. I always mark my edits as minor. And Sactage is correct, even though marked as minor it will still show up in the RC. Welcoming users is a privilege that I enjoy doing and even get thanked by some new users. Please don't take that away by utilizing a bot.  Talk 08:14, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

And BTW "WE" are not wasting our time as there are only a handful of users that actually do the welcoming around here and if it bothered the welcomers, they wouldn't do it. As long as this wiki has users that are willing and happy to do it then I say let "US" do it and all others need not bother and concentrate on the things that they like to do. This is why the User Group was created in the first place.  Talk 08:21, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Errr per Whisk, we're giving up our time to do it, and have been doing so for a long time. IIRC, the wikia bot was actually utilized in like December but then stopped. Plus, what will happen to the NUW? 12:11, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Per Whiskey35, he basically said what how I feel. 12:14, July 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well I've been placing welcome templates on new user's talk pages for about 2 years, but I'd rather have a bot do it, since it frees up time to do other things. 13:28, July 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * There really is no pressure to welcome new users and if you need to do other things on the wiki, feel free as the members of the User Group will welcome them. Like I said thats what the user group was created for in the first place. There are more than enough users willing to welcome new users if nobody else does it. Utilizing a bot to welcome users is taking away one of the satisfactions I get from contributing to the wiki. 20PX_SIG.gif  Talk 01:11, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Personal satisfaction is not really a valid argument. We had users uploading Pimp-My-Gun images for, I guess you could say, personal satisfaction, but that doesn't mean it's practical.


 * Using the Wikia bot would change little if anything. It's a template (remember that user welcomes are also templates) and has a link to an admin's talk page for follow-ups or questions. 01:36, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

I have seen the bot welcome one user then stop, when there are three other un-welcomed users in the same que. I had to go on and welcome them, also I have checked the stats logs and have found countless users that were not welcomed by the bot. It would welcome one and leave the rest, then it stopped doing it altogether. Leave well enough alone. And the question of "why are "we" concentrating on something the bot can do?". Because it doesn't do it very well, if at all and like I said before no one has to concentrate on doing anything on this wiki you are free to do other things and leave it to users that are willing and able to do it.  Talk 02:35, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikia bot welcomes an anonymous editor or user after they have made their first edit. To say it's not doing it's job is unfounded; Wikia bot has over 28,000 welcomes and userpage creations since November. (we swapped out registered user welcomes with registered userpage creation in February because of edit conflicts with "personal" welcomes). 12:49, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, you claim that there is "no pressure to welcome new users," but it's suddenly a big deal if the Wikia bot doesn't do so seconds after a user registers an account. 15:22, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree with your contention, WHISKEY. While you and a handful of others may take pleasure in welcoming users, this is exactly the sort of thing that can and should be automated. The effect is still the same, though arguably more reliable and consistent with an automated process. We don't need the NUW group if we can automatically refer new users to the necessary resources automatically, which is done on practically every other wiki I've worked on. I don't understand the validity in disabling the bot on the basis that a few users want to do the process manually because they can. It's similar to me refusing to use templates and instead preferring to type every infobox out by hand, or fixing common typos because it takes more skill than using a bot. Nonetheless, I don't see why regular users can't do their welcomes alongside the automated bot template, if it's the individualised that you want to commit to. --Scottie theNerd 02:43, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikia bot disregards edit conflicts, and hence, two welcomes were often left on the talk pages of new users. 12:49, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

- Personally, I think that bots shouldn't welcome people. New editors deserve to be welcomed personally be a user, not some bot thing that does it for us while we're off doing other stuff. It gives the wiki a better, more friendly "atmosphere," knowing that users here take the time out of their day to welcome a new user. So, no bot, all user. That's just my 2 cents, or whatever that expression is. 02:43, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * What is the purpose of a welcome template? First and foremost it's to provide an "induction" to new editors by giving them a rundown of expectations and standards as well as links to useful resources for editing. A bot can do that and we don't need a dozen different templates when one can suffice. However, there's nothing stopping you from being friendly by saying hi to editors new or old. --Scottie theNerd 09:28, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've already explained that "personal" welcomes (i.e. using a template) is no more personal than the message the Wikia bot leaves. 12:49, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

I say no. Per WHISKEY35, many users enjoy welcoming users. 09:46, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

I will say no. I say no because there isn't any harm in welcoming new users. And iirc, Bovell said on IRC that we could use our time improving articles instead of welcoming users. Welcoming users doesn't take that long and its not like we devote our lives to the wiki... We could improve articles AFTER we welcomed users.17:11, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I don't really like this idea. Bots get spammed so easily, that it could easily miss plenty of users. WHISKEY usually snatches any that he sees in an instant, which is better than any bot IMO. On a side note, new user welcoming allows any first questions that user has to be answered by the welcomer. Pretty much everything else has already been said.   NCD   [Talk] 06:24, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't spam the recent changes because it's flagged as a bot. If anything, members of NUW spam the recent changes because they aren't flagged.


 * Additionally, using the Wikia bot welcome changes nothing in respect to users having questions. The message is signed with the signature of the most recently active admin, and contains links to that admin's talk page for questions. 14:07, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Another perspective
This has it's pro's and con's. Yes, automating it can be handy. But what about usergroups like the New User Welcomers? If this process was automated, that would signal the end to that user group. Thoughts on this?

Reznov115 Talk  09:46, July 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, it's not like we're suddenly going to have a high national unemployment rate. If a usergroup becomes defunct, what of it? --Scottie theNerd 11:59, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * It just becomes defunct, that's it. It's not a big deal and we don't need to make a big deal out of it. 12:27, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I only count 2 people out of that usergroup who currently welcome new users. 12:49, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * *3 15:42, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to add on to this, what would new user think if they got a message from a BOT? I mean, it takes an actual User to send them a message to get them to stay. We will look like right lazy lumps if we just got a bot to do all the work for us, won't we? Besides, a user-sent message also says to them 'We know you are here. Here's the tutorial'. I just don't belive the bot makes them feel that way. Major_Rank_Marines.png  Reznov115 Talk ExpertDeserteagle.png  15:48, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * How would they know it was a bot? It signs with the name of the admin who most recently edited, in case they have a questions. Also, it would avoid this: LfrHf.png 15:51, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that spam is the repeated posting of the same thing and as you can see that all the posts that bohater did was welcoming all different users. Therefore I dont consider it spam. 20PX_SIG.gif  Talk 23:06, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * You want spam? Look at my talk :3 01:58, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've explained this more than enough times before: there is literally no difference between the bot leaving a message, and a user leaving a welcome template. The Wikia bot also signs the message with the signature of most recently active admin. 15:53, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see why this should change. It's been like this for a year, why change now? 15:55, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it's efficient or practical. 15:58, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if you dont like seeing that, then ignore it. Just wait till some other thing appears. Its not hard to wait till Starnes2 posts something else like an IP editing something or such.17:08, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, it wont show up on the CVN channel if you dont spam it. He spammed it so it showed.21:08, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's actually been like this for as long as I can remember. I was welcomed by Creepydude, not a bot. It wouldn't have made a difference to me whether I had been welcomed by a bot or by a human being, though I did get a nice personal welcome which did mean something to me (but that doesn't happen any more). Anyway, as long as it gives new users information they need, who cares if it's by a bot or a person? 03:26, July 5, 2011 (UTC)

What's the argument? No new user will know the difference between a bot and a human user. There is no 'feel good' feeling from leaving the message manually. You could say we should make cars by hand now, as it's more personal. 16:01, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree completely with AdvancedRookie and Callofduty4, no difference.Panther64 20:47, July 5, 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion
Excuse me if this sounds like the most ignorant thing you've ever heard since I don't know the limits of a bot.

Is there a way the welcome bot could be set so that it would welcome users only at a certain time of day? Like midnight according to the wiki's time the bot would welcome every user that had not been welcomed the previous day and no more until the following midnight. That way, the bot would be used to assist rather than take over, the NUW group would still be able to welcome users and new users would still get welcomed one way or another. Carbonite 0 17:26, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * That wouldnt work, because the bot welcomes users after their first edit. They have to make their first edit before the bot will welcome them. 17:28, July 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * So let it and if some user(s) who did edit but didn't get welcomed by x person the bot will get it. If x person welcomes them before an edit is made, then more power to them. Users still get welcomed and just about everyone can go on about their editing lives. Carbonite 0 17:58, July 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Too complicated. The bot should be doing this job anyway. 19:49, July 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I couldn't care less if we had a NUW group; if we got rid of it all wed do is cause some people to remove a single userbox from their page. In IRC people constantly get into fights about wether or not welcoming people is edit whoring. Wikia gave us the bot for a reason. It's an official bot; it's there to be used. Smuff[ The cake is a lie  ] 21:59, July 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's where I'm puzzled over what the big deal is. There's nothing personal about using templates, and it doesn't matter whether it's a generated welcome from the Wikia bot or from a user. However, at least the bot has the same welcome template for every person instead of having several different ones. I'm not one to criticise use of time, but I'm not seeing how pleasurable putting a template on someone's page can be. Unless you've got red carpet rolled out, a band playing in the background, a glass of wine and a bathrobe with the user's name sewn on it, what people are doing manually is no different to what would happen automatically. The effect on the new user remains the same. The only reason I see against using the bot is if the bot doesn't actually work. --Scottie theNerd 03:51, July 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. 04:00, July 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * The big deal here is that some want to take away some of our editing privileges. The issue that I gather is that the "welcomers" are using personal templates to welcome new users. The simple solution is to disallow all custom templates, mine included, and just keep one that all users will use to welcome new registered accounts. Simple solution. At the time I joined the wiki, there were four or five templates users could choose from. We can eliminate all those templates and come up with a new template that would reflect the most current game release and keeping the current wording of the current template. Any interested parties would be compelled to use that template if they wish to keep on welcoming new users.20PX_SIG.gif  Talk 04:18, July 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * How does the use of a bot to welcome users take away from editing privileges? You're still allowed to edit. You're allowed to say hi to new users You're allowed to post comments on talk pages as per normal. The issue isn't the use of personal templates. The purpose of using a bot is to make a current process more efficient by removing the need for a human to manually put up templates. --Scottie theNerd 04:34, July 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue IS using personal templates per the very first sentence of this forum. 20PX_SIG.gif  Talk 04:45, July 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue is a handful of people who have provided no reason to automate the process other than for "pleasure". We agree we only need one template. With that one template, a bot can do all the welcoming. What's the problem? --Scottie theNerd 05:30, July 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the bot will miss some new users as I have witnessed it myself first hand. There were five unwelcomed users. I started to welcome them I got to two of the users and the bot welcomed the third user and did not welcome the subsequent users. Thinking someone else had welcomed the third user I waited a moment before proceeding. In the mean time I went to check who had welcomed the third user. I found out that the bot had welcomed that user in my name. Closing that window I went to check the status of the two remaining unwelcomed users. The bot did not welcome them. I then welcomed the remaining two users. Also I have seen countless new users who don't even make on to the User Creation Log. I find them in the Avatar log and also after they edit an article. I then re-check the User Creation Log and their name is not there. So I would say leave well enough alone with what works and leave it to experienced human hands to do. The bot while novel has its flaws. 20PX_SIG.gif Talk   06:25, July 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Orly? When did that happen? 10:46, July 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point this out. 00:10, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * So what? It's not as if they'll know it's a bot. And so what if they say thanks? Welcoming new users is a waste of time. 23:55, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

It misses people out, just like the NUW and other user-welcomers. So we should stop using the NUW usergroup because they also miss people out, right? 00:34, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Callofduty4 makes a good arguement. But is it possible to edit the current welcome templates to have a "override" command within the coding of the manual welcomes, so that when the bot comes around, it recognizes the command and won't post a welcome message? TALKICON.png 22:32, July 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have confirmed that Wikia bot will not welcome a user if their talk page has already been created. 23:52, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Also, NUW greet the users 50% of the time before they edit. 01:42, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Your point is... ? 01:49, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * We get it done faster :3 01:56, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Whether it is before or after their first edit, the user still gets welcomed. The only difference is one the methods is automated and more productive.


 * Also, I recall one of the opposition's points of there being "no pressure" to welcome new users. 11:40, July 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I was never welcomed; now I'm one of the wiki's admins. Being welcomed doesn't encourage people to edit; nor does it discourage new users to vandalize. I personally see no reason as to why we need to welcome people to the wiki. That's why we get the bot to do it. In the dictionary, a bot is described as "a device or piece of software that can execute commands, reply to messages, or perform routine tasks, such as online searches, either automatically or with minimal human intervention."


 * Users welcoming other users only creates problems; in IRC users moan at others saying they're an edit whore for welcoming so many people, welcoming IPs, mentioning the edit summary wasn't filled in. It goes on and on and on. Use the bot, it's there to be used. Wikia don't give us things for a laugh, they give us tools to use them. Whilst there are things less important than welcoming, such as blogging, there are far more productive things as well; such as mainspace editing; which as far as the wiki goes is our main priority. Make it so the bot can welcome people and move on. 19:53, July 7, 2011 (UTC)

Rough consensus
Please vote below whether or not you believe that we should start to use the Wikia welcome bot and therefore only have one welcome template.

Support

 * 1) It saves time and keeps all of the welcomes uniform. As long as a user gets the information he/she needs, it's all good.  18:34, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * 2) I have explained my position extensively already, but I will try to be concise. The Wikia bot is a much more practical solution to welcoming users. This is a process that is done best automated, for the sake of consistency and efficiency. We only need one template, and for that reason, it makes more sense to have a bot do the job rather than human editors.  18:57, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * 3) Support -- Per the above discussion. It'd be stupid to not use the tools given to us, and it's even stupider to have such a repetitive, tedious task done by hand; user welcoming simply doesn't need to be personal. It needs to be informative.  21:11, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * 4) Per the above. —  17:53, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * 5) Per all except Mr. Expert -- 21:22, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * 6) (Whoever removed my comment can die). The bot's there to be used; I'm tired of being pinged in cvn constantly because people are copy pasting the same message over and over again. 21:34, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * 7) We're wasting a valuable resource we have by not using the bot. It also keeps the RC from being spammed, for the most part.  07:35, July 10, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) 20PX_SIG.gif  Talk 20:12, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * 20:14, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * You only told us that there was "no harm" in the current way. Please elaborate on your opposition more directly related to the proposal. 20:00, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I meant that there isnt any harm in having us welcome new users. We do our work, and we also improve articles. Its not like we cant improve articles after we welcome users. Welcoming users only takes around 2-3 minutes, and we can spend our time after we welcome users improving articles, as you said. The current system is fine. 20:13, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I can welcome about 15 in 1 1/2 minutes. 20:51, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * You copy and paste like a noob, thats why you show up on the CVN. 21:00, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO- Seriously though, you of all people know that every time you do it you get called an edit whore. 21:31, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, whenever a page is created, you show up on cvn iirc. 21:43, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Lolno. It happens when WikiaRC detects it's a possibly copyright violation, a tiny page, a giant page, or contains certain watch words. 21:45, July 9, 2011 (UTC)

3.

4.   CoaZ Talk 20:30, July 9, 2011 (UTC)

5. 20:54, July 9, 2011 (UTC)

6. --   AJ.Bialke Talk! 07:38, July 10, 2011 (UTC)

Comments
To raise a point, should members of NUW really be voting in this? I think it's a similar issue to the problem we had with usergroups in the past: the members of the group being voted on could all support said group, and the group would pass easily. 21:10, July 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * According to this, you're a member and your still opposing. 21:15, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've been a member of that group almost since it was made, but I never welcome users. I don't even know the last time I welcomed, and my membership is more or less insignificant, and I'm not opposing, since you can't read. Plus, my name is commented out, so it's more or less saying I'm not a member anymore. 21:20, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * To argue with your point, AEAE. And Drk, not anymore. 21:36, July 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * To be fair, people from outside the group had to vote to make it one, why don't people from outside the group vote to keep it. It's the fairest way, letting it go out as it came in. 07:38, July 10, 2011 (UTC)