Forum:Banning joke kicks

I've always been opposed to the idea of "joke kicks" in the chat, but I feel this provided as good an opportunity as any to propose we ban them altogether. See reasoning: There is no forseeable reason why we should continue to allow joke kicks/bans. They serve no practical purpose and thus far have only contributed to hostile situations. They might be "fun" or what have you, but personally even just watching them occur has been frustrating to me as they degrade the credibility of the chatmods actively doing it. I believe they should be henceforth regarded as a bannable offense, or additionally, an offense warranting removal of chatmod tools.
 * 1) Creates much confusion regarding the intent of users involved; seen in multiple instances including Sam's decrat forum but has never really been addressed
 * 2) Makes a mockery of the banning system in general, showing users that getting banned doesn't mean anything anymore
 * 3) Only serves to supplant the ego of whomever is administering the kick/ban
 * 4) Is unfair to any non-chatmod
 * 5) Clogs RC

Now, I don't want this forum to sit for weeks just as much as everyone else, so we should get this out of the way and get it marked into policy before it creates any problems, and we'll be out of here in a tight fifteen Joe Copp 00:43, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not cultured enough in IRC to warrant proposing this rule change for that realm as well; I see this fit more specifically for chat, but if those who use IRC as well would like to determine that they should be goverened the same way, then we'll do that. Joe Copp 00:45, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
One-hundred-percent agree. Joke kicks and bans are a total misuse of the tools given to mods and admins and it should be strictly disallowed. I don't think there is any other way to look at joke kicks or bans, it is using tools meant for preventing disruption to cause disruption. 00:49, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I do agree that mod tools are given to users for them to moderate chat, not to use their powers for jokes and such. Not only does it clog up RC, but also CHAT/B. If I happen to be skimming chat because I'm busy looking at RC or something then "X was kicked" automatically catches my eye and I need to see what's happened, which can be a waste of time should it be a joke. 00:51, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware kicks showed up in the RC. 09:18, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Per all. 00:58, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I never even knew that joke kicks/bans were allowed in the first place. Seems like it falls under power abuse, and as I have seen before, it does become a habit to some users. Although I have never done it, I know that I was kicked on a few occasions as a "joke", and I know that it is not fun or amusing. Also, per Cod4 and Sam, it is 100% misuse of tools and it can become a chore cleaning the CHAT/B page of this stuff. 00:59, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I always assumed it fell under COD:DGTS, since it would be using the ban tools for personal amusement. 01:01, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I really don't see how that falls into DGTS. Care to enlighten me?.-13:38, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Kicks aren't logged to CHAT/B. KλT 01:05, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I honestly do not like this at all thinking about it, and I myself haven't really been joke kicked, but yeah, per CoD4 01:01, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

since we're actually trying to make this a rule I think n7 should be unbanned considering he got banned because of this in the first place. KλT 01:03, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I concur.  01:06, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except he wasn't banned for that. 01:13, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * He was banned at the exact time he joke kicked cammy tho, and didn't do anything else right then   01:24, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * As I've stated, he earnt the ban though complaints and various warnings over the course of that day. It just happened that performing the 'joke kick' was what I banned him on, since I felt in doing so he had abused his powers, and given the amount of warnings he had that day I saw no reason giving him another warning. Now can we stop bringing the ban into every forum please? 01:27, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * To be honest it seemed more like you had a problem with almost anything in the chat that I said. In those 4 weeks or whatever that you weren't there I didn't receive a single warning for anything that I said. Then suddenly the day you return I get 4 or 5 warnings and eventually banned. Obviously i'll add this comment to the actual forum too. 09:18, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Per above. Using the tools in this way lessens the impact when somebody is kicked for a valid reason. It also creates the "beautiful elite", where upon a few users friendly with the kickers could be seen as effectively immune from punishment. Bureaucrats and administrators don't abuse their tools, I see no reason why chat moderation should be an exception. 01:05, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think they aught to be banned, per joe. 01:09, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to say first that I don't personally believe that this makes bans and kicks less serious, because users are still banned and kicked for serious reasons, which are explained to them. However, it is a general nuisance, and users can entertain themselves in different ways than this. Also, is IRC even active anymore? I've tried going on there a few times over the last few weeks, and its been more abandoned than Pripyat. 02:39, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * No. 02:49, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I concur with Joe Copp. 02:49, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. 03:11, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

This just makes good sense. AppleButter180 (talk) 06:28, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed 10:11, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I thought this already constituted an abuse of tools? 10:12, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Crunchastic talk 10:31, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yep. 13:55, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'm just going to be the guy that gets the flak here, because, even though you guys gave good reasons, I do not find this to be a problem (as long as it isn't done excesively, or too many times in a little timespan). Regarding other points adressed here and on a certain other forum, I am not technically sure if this clogs up RC, but it doesn't for me. The only thing that show up is bans, and when they are too many, those get minimized (not really saying we should allow joke bans too, that'd be too excessive). The other point adressed here is using a tool given to certain people. I've had problem(s) with that, and I really didn't mind (I can't remember if it was a certain ocation or a couple more I can't really remember), but this comes to mind. I don't want to start anything against Drk here, it happened like, 2 years ago. But no one did care about that incident except me, and Sactage later when Drk asked him to fix my crap. Also, only oppose in the forum #YOLO.-13:38, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * You say they're not a problem if not used excessively, but we've seen on multiple occasions that this is the case, including Sam's forum. As far as making a mockery of tools given to specific users, it is a completely different scenario here than in your link, since chat joke kicks/bans are seen publicly, and occur much more often than a joke page move. I don't want to sound aggressive, but I feel that just because you haven't had problems with joke kicks/bans personally doesn't mean others haven't. Joe Copp 13:53, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The blade has two edges, they say. I've been kicked in more than a certain occassion jokingly, I've had no problem with it. I'm not saying joking bans are right. Also, the issue stated in Sam's forum happened once, that's were N7 got the ban. As for your last statement, maybe you have/had problems with joke kicks and bans (I was in chat when the whole ban thing happened really, and I was just ignoring monstly the situation), but there are other that have no problem with it. Just because I'm opposing don't think that I never was part of the equation here. If I wasn't, I would've just ignored this and moved on. Also: "we've seen on multiple occasions that this is the case". I've seen two joke kicks in a row once, the other times someone gets kicked jokingly happens very rarely, or just at a very specific situation that have no relation with any others.-14:03, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I've only seen Joke Kicks/Bans become a problem twice. Once was two years ago when I was brand new and kept having Kat kick/ban me cause I thought it was funny, which ended up disrupting chat, and the other is whatever incident led to the forum about Sam. I'm not saying they never cause a problem, but it's not like everytime there's a joke kick some huge debacle is the result. 14:08, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Even if it doesn't happen often, why should it be allowed to happen at all if all it does is cause trouble? It doesn't have to become some sort of huge debacle to become a recurring issue. The fact that they degrade the validity of the kicking/banning process in itself is enough to warrant outlawing them, but that they don't provide any good to match the problems they do create supplements that point greatly. Joe Copp 14:11, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * "why should it be allowed to happen at all if all it does is cause trouble?" Except it doesn't. It's not like saying "bomb" in an airplane, when someone gets kicked with joking purposes, shit doesn't necessarily need to hit the fan everytime, which is how you're introducing this, apparently, "dividing situation". Also "It doesn't have to become some sort of huge debacle to become a recurring issue"? What do you mean by this? It happens too much, and many of those times is totally harmless? Let's put a forum to end this? That's all I'm getting out of that sentence. Also, I still don't get why you keep talking about "kicking/banning" whenever I try to make a point. I already stated several times that I do not find banning as a joke funny (it happened once, for god's sake). "(...)but that they don't provide any good to match the problems they do create supplements that point greatly." I don't get this last sentence here, care to explain it for me?.-14:21, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I mean, I don't see it cause trouble all that often. A user with half a brain tends to know the difference between a legit kick and a joke kick so I still don't really get the "degrade the validity" argument. At the summer job I have, my Boss is a really good friend of mine. sometimes he jokingly "fires" me if I make a joke at his expense. If he were to actually fire me for a big offense I wouldn't go "haha, very funny" and just keep going to work, and when he joke fires me I don't freak out and go "No! Please let me keep my job!". I think the same situation goes for the greater part of the community, they understand when a joke kick is given by a friend, but they also understand when that same friend gives them a real kick. Any "Degradation" would be caused more by a failure of communication of reason or actual power abuse, not the occassional joke. 14:26, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * It means that realistically, there has never been any good to come from joke kicks, and there is no practical reason to keep them around when their repertoire only consists of negative situations. Joe Copp 14:29, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except that's not always true, I've seen many ocassions where users had their joke kick fun, and then the chat returned to normal. In fact, problems stemming from Joke kicks are much more rare than absolutely nothing happening afterwards. 14:31, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * But even times when "nothing" happens afterwards, the simple fact is that joke kicks mock the system whenever they happen. Also, averaging the outcomes of joke kicks still leads to a negative summary (lots of nothing, a few severe problems). Joe Copp 14:35, August 11, 2013 (UTC)