Forum:Eliminating the upload of Pimp My Gun Images.

As seen in a previous WR topic, a new way to name PMG images was proposed, and rightfully, opposed. However, something written by another editor caught my attention, and I quote:

So the question here is- Why do we need PMG images? This is certainly not the Gun Wiki. Could we ban the uploading of PMG images-create a policy forbidding them perhaps? Or could we take an approach similar to fanon, with a CODWikiPMG Wiki, where users here could upload their PMG's there? Thoughts from the community? Please note this in NOT a vote (at least for now), but rather a discussion.

Blackout Talk  06:46, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
Your right; they are not necessary. But they do count as PERSONAL images, and if PMG's are outlawed, then we might as well outlaw every damn personal image uploaded to the wiki. It's not like they are being used on mainspace pages, rather they are used on userpages just to show off. It justs adds a bit of fun to userpages. NCD Oorah! 06:58, May 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with you on that. They are Personal Images to show people's skill. What's the point in deleting them they are not greatly hurting the wiki. 07:01, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

We don't need them. In my opinion, if the uploader doesn't license them at all (at least making an attempt to license is acceptable) or give them a decent name ( "myak47" is NOT decent ) just delete them outright. Personal images that aren't used in the pursuit of a better wikia should not add to admin and TIG workload. Carbonite 0 07:11, May 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Uh, last I checked images that weren't licensed properly were deleted... Faction American.png  NCD Oorah! Faction American.png  07:25, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, a member usually licenses them. Seldom have I seen an image with no license deleted. Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_(1933-1945).svg  Blackout Spreichen Seite Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_(1933-1945).svg  08:10, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

@ Carbonite_0,That is correct that "we don't need them" but it like a perk to the users of this wiki to be able to create these images and paste them up on their user page. And thats pretty much the only place you will see them, and when a user uploads them. They are not allowed to be used on the main space articles. If you don't like PMGs then don't look at them. If you make users get rid of the PMGs then you will have to eliminate all personal images on the wiki including custom signatures that contain personal images. and any personal images found on the the userpages. If you make policy for personal images(which PMGs are) you have to make policy for ALL personal images.  Talk 07:30, May 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * We could simply outlaw JUST PMG images, without the need of generalizing. As another setting, we could have the following scenario: Any personal image uploaded that does NOT contain a proper name or license will be deleted STRAIGHT away. Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_(1933-1945).svg  Blackout Spreichen Seite Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_(1933-1945).svg  08:10, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well there is a section on our page for profile and blog. and if we get rid of this stuff those pages will be useless. It would be boring and a stupid education on CoD. We dont need them but we couldnt do without them 08:29, May 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, we can do without them but that's not my point nor am I trying to outlaw them. Personally, I am not affected if they stay or go but I am firmly against having admins and TIG suffer because someone is too lazy to license or give a decent name ANY personal image, not just PMGs. They're personal images, meaning it should not fall on any admin or TIG to make sure someone took all of 5 seconds to even attempt to license it when only that person will be using it. You upload it for personal use, you personally take care of it. Carbonite 0 16:27, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - First you make Forum:A new way to Name PMG's and now this? Can't we just let the images be... -- 14:59, May 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree, you know how much time this will take? As well as renaming them MB? WAY too long if we don't use Megan's bot. 05:58, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

I say we ban all PMG's. I find nothing of use to them and don't see the fun. There's no need to ban all personal images, just PMG's. They contribute nothing to the wiki but clutter.  Poketape Talk 05:16, May 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * It would drive off many users in the process. It's a fun way for some users to 'show off' what they make. JWW makes very good PMGs AND names them properly. His shouldn't be deleted. I make ones occasionally. We should only delete the ones that are not named correctly. 05:57, May 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't care if it drives users away. If they really cared about CoD and/or the wiki, then they would stay. If they're only here to show off their PMGs, then they should stick to facebook. I'm sure their real friends just LOVE their PMGs. BOofficialicon.jpg‎ Poketape Talk 02:56, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone apart from me, think it's strange that we don't allow OT blog posts, but still allow OT images? Sgt. S.S. 11:26, May 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ahem. 11:36, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Why do we need then? The answer is,  WE DON'T.  But the problem is that this is a sort of bomb. Delete them or not, it has it's ups and downs. Don't delete them, then more and more people will make them, and (as Poketape pointed out), it just contributes mothing but a pile of clutter to the wiki. However, (as sp3c pointed out), If we delete them, we will drive users away. Thus, this place will go to wreck and ruin within a short time. I do, however, support Poketape's point. Besides, you don't go see PMG's anywhere else. The Banhammer should fall on them. Reznov115 Talk  19:06, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Being one of the two PMG-pioneers on this wiki, (Along with PGB.) I have realized this has become a neusance. Just outlaw them. Another wiki ontop of the (failed.) social wiki will just be too much. Plus, nobody uploads quality anymore, yet they are praised like gods. Slowrider7 03:43, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * It was PGB's plan all along to screw the wiki over with needless images! Duh duh duuuuuuh! BOofficialicon.jpg‎ Poketape Talk 02:56, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this was addressed previously (I haven't had time to read the entire discussion), but lots of people are confusing Wikia with social networking. For those who say that changing rules on personal images is violating their rights, Wikia isn't a place for sharing random personal things. I understand that userpages can be used for this, but when you look at this whole PMG thing, you see how out of hand this has gotten. We have a usergroup for PMG, but that's off topic, and CoD wiki doesn't need OT usergroups. That's for Facebook, but not here. I see that some people are arguing that these things are fun, and without them, the wiki will be boring. I agree that the wiki would be boring if it's just a whole bunch of articles on weapon stats and stuff, but that's why we have on topic polls, blogs, and other CoD related fun stuff. Bioniclepluslotr 03:17, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

An extended response
Some of you may know that I do the occasional bit of artwork, and at least two have been COD-related. I do store them on the wiki for anyone coming across my userpage, though that's rarely the case and only a couple of people have ever commented on these "personal" images. Most of my work goes on DeviantART, where there are several military and COD-themed groups where artists can share their work. Not surprisingly, Pimp My Gun (PMG) is a very common way of contributing artwork.

A while ago, one of the military-theme groups took a stance on PMG. The moderator, after discussion and consideration of its group members, decided to ban PMG submissions to the group. The rationale was that PMG images contained no original ideas and feature no creativity in any form of art. In essence, PMG is a program designed to generate quantities of customisable weapon designs; it is not a means for which a creator can claim any form of original content. Thus, it was decided that PMG images had no artistic basis -- and definitely no "skill" -- and would not be allowed in the group.

What does this have to do with the wiki? One of the common arguments listed in this debate is that we allow users to upload "personal" images. To me, I see there is a spectrum of "relevance" that we can tolerate on the wiki. Many users make use of in-game screenshots to base their personal characters on or otherwise decorate their pages with cool pictures of these characters. At least they're from Call of Duty. Others use random images of clipart, internet memes and movie pictures. Mostly, these are situational and often are only used on a userpage. No problem there so far. The problem begins with PMG.

PMG is not a one-off image that is used for decorative or personal purposes. By far and large, PMG is a means for users to generate tons of images that differ in minute detail, and then upload them into a gallery that showcases them. What purpose is it serving? Surely that is taking "personal" images to a new level when people are allowed to create personal galleries. That's not even commenting on the dubious quality of PMG images. PMG is, by design, a generator of generic weapon images. There's no value in these images, and there certainly are better places to showcase your "work" than on Call of Duty wiki.

The claim that banning PMG will drive users away is ludicrous. PMG is used by a minority of users. Back when we had the blog debate, we kept on bringing up the idea of being distracted instead of focusing on the wiki. Surely PMG is even more detrimental to the wiki due to the fact that users need to spend time to generate the images, upload them and get users to view them -- we even have a usergroup dedicated to PMG. Not only is it distracted, clearly there have been problems in managing images once they have been uploaded. We've had problems with image naming and licensing, and the users who maintain these aspects of the wiki have to put up with fixing and/or deleting what could potentially be masses of generic gun clipart. Furthermore, users definitely aren't coming to CODwiki to pimp their guns. If PMG is actually an attraction (which seems to be implied by some proponents, who claim banning them would "drive away many users"), there's something very, very wrong with the wiki.

Just because we can store images doesn't mean we should. We are not an image bank. Even if images were properly named and licensed, we still shouldn't have to host tons of personal images. I could, for example, upload my holiday photos -- named and licensed, of course. I don't see how that's different to uploading a hundred PMG images. There's always the "these are personal images" argument, but common sense and reason should prevail here. There's a difference between using a personal image to spruce up your page and creating a gallery of several dozen PMG images.

I personally don't like PMG pictures, but that's just me. I'm not campaigning to ban them on the basis that I dislike them. However, I feel that the reasons for allowing them are limited when we consider the sheer number of them. We are, after all, CODWiki and not PMGwiki. There is, or should be, a limit as to how far we can tolerate "personal use" of image space. --Scottie theNerd 03:37, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't like them either, and I especially dislike the ones which literally take the presets and just add a few attachments. It's clear that many users enjoy them, and they are becoming more clearly organised now, with help from Cakemix, her bot, and Furry's bot. Most have a PMG_ designation and are in their own category. 04:01, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * But that doesn't mean they aren't helpful. We're a wiki, not an image hosting site (which I've stated multiple times on previous forums about removing these images). We could still use them, and they'd still be enjoyed by users if they were on imageshack/photobucket. It would also be more organized, since most of our editors upload their PMG over another PMG, which messes up whatever page they're on. -- 04:34, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's going to deter users from the wiki. Why don't we just ban blogs while we're at it. We're not a community site, we're a encyclopedia. See what I'm saying. Also, who would clean up 'all the empty pictures. 04:44, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not going to deter anything. The main people who come to the wiki come here to read articles. If people come here to see some retarded fake gun then we're in trouble. As for cleaning up the empty pics, AWB will easily do that. -- 04:51, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * I really can't see how this can deter people from the wiki, and if it does, it might be a good thing. People don't come to the wiki to look at PMG pictures. If they are, we're obviously not a very good COD wiki. --Scottie theNerd 05:39, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * I couldn't have said any of that better myself StN. Valid points are being stated as well as supported. In theory, PMG images are the same as Fanfiction, they are not canon to Call of Duty, and do not belong on this wiki. I think Whiskey recalls one User:Azf12 (sorry to throw you under the bus here) who I, Whiskey, and him had a small conflict where he would upload PMG's, either with incorrect or no license, or improper naming. When W35 and I renamed the images, and they were deleted of his userpage, he would re-upload some 5 duplicates. Obviously, we are NOT responsible to clean this up, as we already have enough to do mantaining the 3,000 articles we have here. Raygunprofile.png Blackout TalkThunderGun.png  17:15, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not the part about the canon that irks people. COD fanfiction at least has something to do with COD, which is more than what many of our images currently are. The problem is that as a wiki, our purpose is to catalogue encyclopedic information about the video game series and related media. We can't write fanfiction articles, which is why we don't support them on the wiki. PMG is not the same as fanfiction on the basis of canon. Rather, they have as much to do with the wiki as Mario Paint clips. --Scottie theNerd 22:16, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not the part about the canon that irks people. COD fanfiction at least has something to do with COD, which is more than what many of our images currently are. The problem is that as a wiki, our purpose is to catalogue encyclopedic information about the video game series and related media. We can't write fanfiction articles, which is why we don't support them on the wiki. PMG is not the same as fanfiction on the basis of canon. Rather, they have as much to do with the wiki as Mario Paint clips. --Scottie theNerd 22:16, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

PMGs are a waste of wiki space. This is not PMG Wiki, if you want to upload your PMGs somewhere go to ImageShack or something. And no a lot of users are uploading their fake guns. I think around 35-40% of our wiki is doing it. I don't want to search for an image of an MP40 for example and get pictures of crappy German submachine-guns. There's a limit and we reached that limit. Omnicube1 17:25, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Althought they don't harm the wiki, they take a lot of regulating. Better to create a PMG wiki. 17:54, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Per AdvancedRookie. Why not a PMG image wiki? Reznov115 Talk  19:06, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

I also stand for the PMG wiki, altought I have like 3 (?) on my user page, I woudl make them again and put them on the PMG wiki.-
 * Do you realize that you can just save the images to your computer and reupload them without having to make them again? 03:38, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

I think that a PMG wiki is a great idea, and it's probably the easiest solution, as it can cater for users who don't want to make an ImageShack or Photobucket account. Sgt. S.S. 20:38, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

If people want a PMG wiki, that's fine. Please note that it would be somebody else's job to run it, not the CoD wiki's.  Poketape Talk 21:41, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed, it also wouldn't be affiliated in any way. 18:20, May 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Could we not reformat the fanfic wiki to incorporate semi-related blogs and PMGs as well? 21:51, May 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * To be frankly honest, I don't understand why you need a wiki for Pimp My Gun. What you need is image sharing network, or at most a forum. Why would you want to have a collaborative online workspace to store generated images? --Scottie theNerd 22:16, May 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * A wiki for that seems a little much. All they really need is a facebook fanpage in my opinion. But as Poketape has said, it wouldn't be the COD wiki's job to run it. Or make sure it even happens. Carbonite 0 00:13, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

A seperate PMG wiki seems to be a better solution than cluttering the PMGs into our wiki. 20:07, May 14, 2011 (UTC) Pmgs are the things which seperate this wikia from boring education to and actual community based forum. banning these would mean banning other personal things such as fanon. The blogs are there for a reason. The logic used is this... dont have them because SOME arent licensed. Dont have them because they have no purpose. Dont have them because wikia isnt for this.
 * Then why would you vote oppose to removing PMGs? BOofficialicon.jpg‎ Poketape Talk 23:32, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

1. SOME wikia contributers are flamers (lets get rid of them too)

2. Signatures have no purpose (Bann these too)

3. (Purpose) the wikia IS FOR THE COMMUNITY. PMGS are part of the community... if u dont like them. close ur eyes when u see them. Go to another site. LEAVE 10:17, May 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Woah woah what?


 * 1.We do get rid of flamers, hences blocks and comment deletions (look at the deletion and block logs, the things change everyday if not every hour.)


 * 2 Signatures give users some personality and just about every wiki has them and those don't directly add to Admin and TIG workloads. If Sp3c or COD4 don't want to, they have no obligation to make me,you, or anyone else a signature if they choose not to. Unlike with PMG licensing, if they or someone else didn't do that we could end up in court.


 * 3. The purpose for this wiki is to be an encyclopedia on Call of Duty, NOT a forum or a community and in my honest opinion, PMGs (maybe just on this wiki) have a habit of being distraction to Admin's from doing things that actually make the wiki better and not just doing work the uploader should've done to begin with. Carbonite 0 16:14, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

PMG Wikis
Actually there are wikis for PMGs already. Here and here. Carbonite 0 05:46, May 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok then, since we now know these wikis actually exist, here's what we could do. Allow the remaining PMGs to stay on the wiki but stop the uploading of all new PMGs. Anyone caught breaching this (we can make an ammendment to the image policy) will be warned and eventually banned if they continue to do so; anyone who wants to make a PMG can go to one of the above wikis instead of here.


 * However, we must remember that we're the second most active wiki on Wikia Gaming, and whilst we cover the largest gaming franchise in the world, another key reason is due to the leniency we give our editors; we allow them personal images and we allow the creation semi-relevant blogs. If we divert users to other wikis to make PMGs, we might lose a few on our side. While only a minority of users actually make PMGs, these editors are still part of the community; one of which is even an administrator here. Using the logic we had with blogs, theoretically, if it can be proven that eliminating the upload of PMGs will reduce the size of our community, we shouldn't go ahead with it. I know what the attitude of most people is, "If they don't contribute, why should we care where they go?" However, the same can be said for blogs, yet we retain them and see them as a vital way to keep people on the wiki.


 * I'm on the fence here, while I don't like hate PMGs, I don't want to see are community take a hit from the decision of about 10 editors. 12:48, May 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * I view it as a fad personally and I am starting to think we may be over thinking it. There will always be blogs that people will want to talk about. After a certain amount of time, PMGs won't be as interesting since they can only do so much will what they're given. A blog is a blank canvas, a PMG is a canvas with a gun already on it thus limiting what all can be done with it and its overall life span. Carbonite 0 17:57, May 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Unless the amount of PMGs start to die down, I think they should all go on one of the wikis, with a very obvious link on this wiki. I have nothing against the PMGs, it's just the vast quantity of licensing and naming involved. But if there is some truth between PMGs and users staying here, then maybe we should continue to allow it, but with stricter rules on uploading.AdvancedRookieSig.png 18:07, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * It is very simple. We are the Call of Duty Wiki, not the PMG Wiki, not even the Guns Wiki. Our job here is to inform other people about every single detail of the Call of Duty series, not to show them made-up weapons from various other people. Yes, I'l admit, at one point, I had some PMG's in my user profile, but I got bored of it. Like AdvancedRookie, I also have nothing against them, but I think we should get rid of them. (No offense intended to the PMG lover's) João Lima 16:52, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * It is very simple. We are the Call of Duty Wiki, not the PMG Wiki, not even the Guns Wiki. Our job here is to inform other people about every single detail of the Call of Duty series, not to show them made-up weapons from various other people. Yes, I'l admit, at one point, I had some PMG's in my user profile, but I got bored of it. Like AdvancedRookie, I also have nothing against them, but I think we should get rid of them. (No offense intended to the PMG lover's) João Lima 16:52, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

PMGs are actually pretty old, they've been around for at least a year, iirc, and they gain a spike in popularity every time a new CoD comes out. Personally all I see them as is shit left behind by other editors which needs cleaned up a lot. I have better things to do in my life than 10 PMGs. Even still, although users don't come here simply to upload a PMG, it helps us retain some of the community. I'd be more towards the getting rid of them side, however. 20:44, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Jones143, haven't PMG pics been done to death?  Jones143 Talk


 * I agree and with all the renaming and categories we're actually starting to sort them out abit. — 20:47, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

The Final Consensus
Now we take a vote. With all reasons having been stated above, please ONLY use Support/Neutral/Oppose, and with the reason being 'Per Above'. -- Admin note -- No dictating how people vote. 22:19, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Support
 Blackout Talk  12:33, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

João Lima 16:40, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

Sgt. S.S. 19:51, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

21:03, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

--Scottie theNerd 11:16, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Per all Support. Reznov115 Talk   21:12, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

22:38, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

08:03, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

--   AJ.Bialke Talk! 08:38, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

 Poketape Talk 03:26, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

-- CoD addict (talk) - 00:13, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not against them, but you can make your own wiki for them, but not here. PMGs have nothing to do with CoD. Someone should just make a PMG Wiki. Changed my thoughts. I think PMGs should only be on personal pages, and images that are not on any page should be removed. Bioniclepluslotr 03:01, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Neutral
20:35, May 11, 2011 (UTC) Changing vote - 22:38, May 12, 2011 (UTC) Dr. Feelgood 20:46, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

Carbonite 0 20:54, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

--   CoaZ Talk    00:35, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

— 18:36, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

01:44, May 14, 2011 (UTC) Changed opinion: To be perfectly honest, I actually really do not car whatsoever as to what happens to these, contradictory to my other points. If they make less work, which they will if they are eliminated, I say, by all means, delete them.   NCD   [Hooah!] 02:07, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose
20:58, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

21:02, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

21:11, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

01:31, May 14, 2011 (UTC) Changing vote.

<span style="background-color:black; border:3px ridge silver; ">  ThUnDeRgUn Talk     21:12, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

my comments are above 10:19, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

They're not hurting anyone,now are they? Soap-Mactavish What the hell kinda name is Soap? 23:02, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not hurting anyone, no. Apart from the admins who have to take time away from more important tasks to ensure that PMGs are all properly licensed. Sgt. S.S. 18:31, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the best way to paraphrase what S.S. said is "PMGs are basically the shit under my shoe I have stop [I do other things beside fix PMGs] and scrape off [licence and rename]." 18:36, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh,well,nothing I can do about it,then.There are much supporters than opposers.... Soap-Mactavish What the hell kinda name is Soap? 23:02, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * @S.S. We have a lot of free time, it's not that bad, just use quick license on the page or on IRC. Or, just delete them. 23:16, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Comments

 * Way to read the discussion above. Similar points have been gone over. B-sides, avatars are a completely different thing.
 * Avatars are stored on a central server for global use across Wikia, they're not a personal picture stored on this wiki's server. 11:37, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Carbonite 0 21:26, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

Bioniclepluslotr 03:10, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * The person who called the vote told everyone not to provide reasons. The Oppose votes were made before Sactage rectified that. --Scottie theNerd 09:12, May 16, 2011 (UTC)