Forum:Addressing IRC vs S:C

Hello. I am here to address the Divide between S:C and IRC. As of late, i have seen a... Well "Division" between editors that reside in there respective chats. All of this has just spiralled out of control. People in the Special chat may as well hate the IRC, and people in the IRC think that the special chat is.. "Lesser" and "Not as good". I have seen a number of times people downright being disrespectful to others just for being from one of said chats. First off, this is in no way for anyone to be acting. These chats are there, for enjoyment and conversation, not to create some petty war between people in the same community. All of the people involved need to understand that no matter the where you talk to people, be it on S:C, or IRC, We all edit on the same wiki, and we are all on the same team. Now It is beyond me how to stop this. Maybe having a forum will stop it, i don't know. Leave ideas/comments below. thanks 04:23, January 23, 2012 (UTC) (Note: I well understand i have also been apart of this problem, and if i seem hypocritical bringing this up, so be it.)

Discussion
You are so right, maybe S;C people try out IRC  RC  ™   04:30, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

My main problem is when IRC people (especially admins, cause they set examples) go into chat and don't understand the rules quit as well. With IRC being more lenient with what is allowed and not, that doesn't mean people should come on and think the rules are the same. Offensive jokes are one of the main problems, not naming names (though it should be rather obvious), but some recent chat activity has been un-acceptable by chat rules, but would of gone by easily in IRC.

The worst and most infuriating part for people is that often times, these IRC people who come in and miss-interpret rules are admins, which can't be directly banned from chat, and could just go on and do wrong. Some of them don't even care for what mods (who probably have the best understanding of chat rules) have to say, and just put warnings aside.

While removing either of them would just be a bad idea, I think that when people from one chat joins the other, they need to understand the rules and who has what authority better. 04:34, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Smil, while you make a good point, Kat isn't talking about the problem with differing rule sets. He's talking about competition between which chat is better, IRC or Special:Chat. While your point is valid, it's not why the forum was brought up. 04:39, January 23, 2012 (UTC)~
 * I completely understand that, but one of the main reasons for the entire problem is because of the different rules and what gets miss-interpreted, I know many chat people who don't like IRC for the sole reason that they will come in chat and not understand the rules. And also, since we're talking about problems with IRC and Chat relations, why not just get it all sorted out now? 04:49, January 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * I see what your saying now. 04:51, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

I have a solution to end all this, right now. (Actually, it's Cod4's solution, but whatever.) If someone joins the Chat/IRC saying that one is better than the other, just have an admin ban them temporarily (or perma if it's bad enough) from the one they like and be done with it. I've always just imagined these "wars" like the U.S. Marines vs. Army. Pointless, because we're fighting the same war anyway. Frohman Sitrep 06:14, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Except that administrators can't be banned from S:C unless they're sysop flags are removed. That is the problem. Shotrocket6 10:12, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then their rights can be removed, it's only fair. 14:02, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

While I myself have never been on S;C for the simple reason being that my browser wont allow it, Ive always been on IRC. The questions that I have are, why is it that the rules of S;C are treated differently from IRC? Why is the S;C moderated by non-sysops and IRC is? Are there different rule sets for S;C and IRC? Not to my knowledge. In my opinion they should be treated exactly the same. I see users getting banned in S;C so often and probably for petty offenses I often wonder why, whereas in IRC users are not banned as frequently. As far as I can tell the rules for both IRC and S;C are they same. So the question begging to be answered is, why is S;C modded by non-sysops? Ive got a feeling that non-sysop moderators can be rather heavy handed and quick to press the ban button, especially if they are inexperienced users. Why is it that users would get banned for an infraction in S;C and not in IRC? The rules are the same remember?  Talk 06:48, January 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Whiskey, yes, the basic rules of IRC and chat are basically similar; that is true. However, S:C is much more strict than Chat, for a couple of reasons. First off, IRC can be difficult to enter for new users (I couldn't figure out how to enter IRC until I had around 2000 edits xD). Chat, on the other hand, can be entered with an account and a single click. Therefore, it is much more open to trolling. With the large amount of potential trolls in S:C, admins can't be there 24/7; in fact, during late nights in Chat, there are usually NO admins; chat mods who are not sysops are the solution to this. Second, IRC is home to many..."experienced" users. There, people know the rules well, and as such, most of them know each other and can joke around without someone getting offended. In S:C, many users join our Wiki just for our chat, and are usually new users. As such, some jokes, comments, etc. can offend these new users, who also might not know the rules.


 * If you don't want to read that huge wall of text, here is a tl;dr version; IRC is a lot more different from S:C than you think. 07:17, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm the one who brought this up in S:C after being kind of pissed off at Damac's banning. So I think I should explain the context of why I wanted Kat to bring this up. Prepare for an extremely long boring story.

So I was there in the beginning when N7 and Smuff pulled an IRC conversation, jokingly insulting each other and the like. Soon, more IRC users, like Xd1358 and Damac joined. Soon, I don't even know how (I had left by then), the conversation drifted to 9/11 jokes. From what I heard, some users, especially one, were offended. Damac continued and was banned.

So there you have it. I know that the jokes were wrong and should not have been said, but what disturbed me most was that it was the admins from IRC who started this whole thing. They came in and essentially treated S:C just like IRC; Damac followed this example and was subsequently banned. This needs to stop; IRC users need to respect the rules of chat, especially the admins, who can evade chat bans. Just my view on things. Not blaming anyone here and I hope you are not offended if I referenced you. 06:54, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really the main reason why i brought this up, more or less it's been leading up to this slowly. 07:48, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if one chat has tighter rules than the other. There is no excuse for people from one chat to be purposefully annoying people from the other chat. Doing so counts as harassment and will lead to bans and demotions if necessary. Without discussion. What's more, the perpetrators are usually the guys from IRC who think they can do whatever they want in the Chat without punishment, because of what they are used to on IRC. Because I pretty much live in IRC and Chat, I'm pretty sure this is the case. I also have to regularly quiet users on IRC for talking smack about Chat and its users behind their backs. Again, it's harassment and will never be tolerated. 14:02, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cod4, whilst I'm not a regular chatter in IRC, I do join it now and again if I need an admin (As I know that's where the admins tend to be) and I've seen cases where someone from IRC has done something in chat which got a user to respond, at which point they'll relay it back to IRC for another user to do. This can be an annoyance, as pointed out earlier, admins have been known to get involved, whilst I do understand it's all in good fun if a new user joins and sees this taking place they're going to think it's alright to do. I don't mind when the two chats mix, I just don't like when we turn it in to an argument just because we want reactions off of each other. 14:16, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree completely with COD4 and Sam, enough is enough. 19:33, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

The reason judiciary actions aren't handed out as much as they should be is that the ability to moderate on the chat feature is awful; as it stands chatmods have the same abilities as administrators, there's no quiet function and the only way to remove someone is to kickban them, which is a rather time consuming process when considering cataloging bans. If you'd like to see more action being taken in chat, by all means, please contact Wikia and ask for more features. 19:41, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've discovered that we can request that administrators need to earn chatmod rights rather than have them by default via Special:Contact. Does anyone think this is a good idea? Shotrocket6 21:12, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * YES 21:26, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 100% agree. 21:31, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait, if admins aren't allowed chat mod. Why the hell would "normal" users be allowed it?! 21:34, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * They can, just like every other editor, they have to earn it.  21:39, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then who would get the flags in the first place? 21:37, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * The administrators would have to earn it just like the chatmods did. And before you bring up the point that "they are randomly selected," they have since proved themselves and all chatmods selected from that point on have been selected only after noting their trust.
 * To Smuff, the current chatmods and administrators that are in chat the most would recieve the rights by default, such as Callofduty4 and myself. Shotrocket6 21:40, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * How do you define "the most". 21:47, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's to be decided. Alternatively, we could go with Cod4's idea below. Shotrocket6 21:48, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * If anything I'd say I'm in chat more than most admins. (Albeit not always paying attention.) Anyways, as far as I'm aware, administrative duties stretch across the entire wiki, even as far as IRC. As op flags are a standard for admins on IRC, chat shouldn't be treated differently. 21:51, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * But IRC is different in that op flags can be removed from a user without taking away their sysop flags, and as it currently stands, that's not the case in chat. The vote is proposing we change just that, so that we may take away the chatmod rights should we need to. Shotrocket6 21:55, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

So, you want to remove the chatmod right from admins to be able to ban them when necessary? Seriously, what the fuck. So you guys make people admin when you still don't trust them enough to not be sure they don't have to be banned from the chat? Why the hell would you not trust everyone you trust with block and delete tools with chatmod tools? 21:56, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Vote
This vote is to decide whether we should contact Wikia for the point I had mentioned directly above.

Support

 * 1) Shotrocket6 21:40, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2)  21:49, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) Per Cod4  Hud fnfiveseven.png  Strike lll   butt_crisis   21:52, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) Per Cod4 and nom. If someone needs to be removed, they should be, regardless of adminship or not.  21:54, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) Per all and nom.  Eternal  Blaze  21:56, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Per all and nom.  Eternal  Blaze  21:56, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

 * No you can't, since they can remove bannedfromchat from themselves. 21:55, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * If they remove it then perhaps a review of their flags should be in order then. 21:57, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was just about to say what Smuff did, if they are getting banned from chat continuously for misconduct, and then just un-banning themselves to get back in, theres more of a problem then simply they need to be banned. 22:00, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)   1358  (Talk)  21:53, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) I cannot think of a situation in which an admin would be abusing chatmod, but not the other sysop tools. If you can trust someone to have access to abusefilter, editinterface, block, etc, chatmod shouldn't be worth worrying about. Add to this the fact that all of the admin abuse stuff is hypothetical, and nobody has proposed just asking a hypothetical admin to not use chatmod in the way that they were, and you get a pretty strong oppose from me. If an admin is misusing chatmod, ask them to stop. If they continue, they obviously have lost the trust to be an admin, never mind chatmod. 21:54, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) Per ajr. 21:57, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I cannot think of a situation in which an admin would be abusing chatmod, but not the other sysop tools. If you can trust someone to have access to abusefilter, editinterface, block, etc, chatmod shouldn't be worth worrying about. Add to this the fact that all of the admin abuse stuff is hypothetical, and nobody has proposed just asking a hypothetical admin to not use chatmod in the way that they were, and you get a pretty strong oppose from me. If an admin is misusing chatmod, ask them to stop. If they continue, they obviously have lost the trust to be an admin, never mind chatmod. 21:54, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Per ajr. 21:57, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
What the fuck are you doing? Since when did we just go to vote with just a few lines of discussion. This whole vote should be voided. 21:43, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Aye, you've literally started a vote on a 2 hour old proposal... 21:44, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm agreeing with N7 on this one. This vote seems very sudden, and more like an attempt to rush through your proposal before an opposition can be mounted in discussion.AdvancedRookieSig2.png 21:45, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I do see your point. I wouldn't have made a vote if I hadn't encountered such immediate and powerful support for it when I brought it up in the chat. Shotrocket6 21:46, January 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * If it was a codference then maybe, but chat doesn't have logs. 21:53, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

You all seem to be missing the point of why Katanagod posted this forum. No disrespect, these are some interesting ideas i'm seeing, but Kat brought up the forum due to Chat vs. IRC elitism, not the balance of power in chat. This was more of a PSA that any kind of hostility between Chat users and IRC users should be ended. When Smiluliar brought up the difference in rules, that was a good point because it does cause a rift between the two groups as they tend to have different personalities. Shotrocket, no disrespect, but your proposal should be brought to another forum, it doesn't solve chat vs IRC hostilities, it might even be seeding more. 21:54, January 23, 2012 (UTC)~


 * Since when is it appropriate for someone who supports a proposal to strike an opposers vote without any reason? On just about any other wiki in existence that would be considered bad practice, and then rollbacking an undo of that edit would be considered abuse. 22:05, January 23, 2012 (UTC)