Forum:Removing joke kicks

Now, some time ago there was a forum regarding joke kicks and bans, and the outcome for that forum was that joke bans be removed and joke bans ended with no consensus. However a recent occurrence has come to my attention that has caused confusing towards the related ban that occurred later. As I am only a second hand witness to these events, I will only go off what I've been told, and will not name any names. The occurrence (as I've been told) was one user calling another "fat" (apparently in jest) which lead to said user being kicked with no follow-up of warning or sign of offence being taken, making this look like a joke kick in response to a joking insult from a user that has been known to do them on occasion. Some time later this lead to a ban, however due to an unhelpful ban reason, and no prior visual offence taken this at first looked like an illegitimate ban. After reviewing the logs of parties involved, I'm satisfied enough that the ban is legitimate enough for myself to not have to interfere as a third party, and said ban is not the topic behind this forum, merely an anecdote to showcase reason why joke kicks should not be utilised. 16:13, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
I'm not sure if I raised it before, but this is one of the many reasons I dislike the idea of joke kicks, it lessens their effect when used when they're meant to be used and can lead to confusion like above. While it could be argued other factors were involved, like lack of visual offence at the time and no warnings given at the time, they could easily be counter-argued by the fact a kick is supposed to be a warning in it itself. If they become saturated over constant use when they weren't meant, then they become ignored and the user that did get kicked thinks nothing of it, as do onlookers. Frankly allowing them to remain weakens the power of the kick to the point where a user could use joke kicks as an adequate defence for not knowing they'd been warned. 16:13, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

I agree that we should stop with joke kicks and bans. Is it funny? Yeah, it can be. But for the sake of saving people from confusion and headaches it's better to not do so. I've asked people to stop doing so but it just keeps happening. I wish there was a written rule so every kick in the future would be seen as a clear warning. 16:20, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

This again? KλT 21:02, December 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Because this is an issue and it needs adressing, no? 21:21, December 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a made up issue that's relevant to sam's flawed perception of reality. The chat primarily used by old bastards and new users who end up leaving after being dismissed because the chat is just that empty. Or chat invaders. Using the kick function in this manner is fine. The fact this forum even exists is a joke in itself. KλT 21:51, December 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * During hours when chat is more active, one of the reasons that drives users away is because "everyone is such a dickhead", as you mentioned. I believe people would give the chat a fairer chance before leaving if we didn't. 22:04, December 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yea, people are dickheads because they don't seem to remember when every user was new and didn't know shit about anything. I've ranted about this in countless forums so i won't get into it again, but it's an issue. KλT 22:18, December 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * My point still stands. Such seemingly aggresive behaviour isn't attractive at all. And we can always cite COD:BITE if a user does it to newcomers. 22:24, December 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * The main deterrent to new users is just the attitude towards them in general. Most people don't want to bother with them. People including you have been dismissive to the point of rude before. What's happening isn't even covered in that policy. It's just elitism. None of you even consciously know what you're doing. KλT 22:42, December 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * If I am ever dismissive of newcomers it's because their intentions in the chat are short and/or to annoy people, like people asking to add us on PSN or acting childish - it's normal to show no interest in those users. With that out of the way,  I'm talking about being receptional. Saying a hi and simply showing we are not "dickheads" should be enough to not scare them away. J oking around by calling each other names and joke kicking does not help in building a community. 23:07, December 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Dude, you actually have no evidence to prove that joke kicking tubw a couple times a week actually has a negative outcome. Correlation does not imply causation bro. If you're real crusade here is to actually make the chat more accessible to people, banning a dumb fucking joke isn't gonna do it. KλT 00:42, December 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't have proof, but I'm saying how I've seen it a few times - A user leaving without saying much after joining in the middle of a circlejerk. And I'm interested in this not only for that, but to avoid confusions like the case Sam mentioned, and because I personally don't like this kind of attitude. It's a long debate too, since 2011 some people have mentioned joke bans/kicks are not healthy, and that it does more harm than good. It's a dumb fucking joke indeed, one that can cause confusion and basically undermines the purpose of the kick function. I've made my points clear and I don't see how the chat wouldn't benefit from the correct use of kicking. 00:58, December 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * The kick function doesn't even really do anything in the first place. If someone has joined to fuck around, a kick won't deter them. They'll rejoin. I don't like people dictating what people should do. I don't agree with sam and I don't agree with you. But do whatever you want, if you guys want to run the wiki into the ground and make it a PC ceramic gallery go ahead. KλT 01:12, December 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Who is dictating what now? This is a discussion. And kicking does have a function. It exists to warn people. Newcomers see people getting kicked all around and that is not welcoming. Plus it's plain childish. I still don't know how you haven't understood that, but okay, you've shown you are not interested. And lets not be ridiculous now, we are discussing a minor CHAT rule change. It won't hurt the wiki any conceivable way. 01:53, December 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand that you find it childish, it's just the fact that i don't think it is. That's how these things work. KλT 08:24, December 23, 2015 (UTC)

"It's a made up issue that's relevant to sam's flawed perception of reality." - I'm sorry Kat. But at what point in this forum did I attack you? You're a VSTF and Bureaucrat, and so far I've yet to see any professionalism from you. I made this forum because the joke kicks lead to an issue in which users were unaware if a ban was actually legitimate, and to be honest when I saw the ban reasoning as "the 1990's called, they want their easy targets and shitty jokes back" even I thought it was a joke ban which lead me to investigate the issue. You seem to be attacking me for having a warped view on reality, when you have a warped view on what is and isn't childish, when you currently hold two massively important titles. I like this Wiki, and believe that we should actually run it with a degree of professionalism, which means we use the tools as they're meant to be used and not as our own personal plaything. I mean, one of the reasons we had the whole IRC-Chat row a few years back was because IRC users came in to chat used to no enforced rules and joke kicks and got told off for it, like they should have been done before. If you really seem to hate rules and regulations, then why do you even have bureaucrat rights if you have no intent of enforcing our policies? Why do you have VSTF rights when you use kick tools for fun? Should I expect to find myself phalanxed as a joke? The point of this forum was to address joke kicks, and I left names out of it in an attempt to prevent personal attacks or off-topic debating, but clearly all you wanted to do was start slinging insults at me, just like last time, and hoping that distracts everyone from the issue. Well guess what, all you've done is hurt my feelings over something that I just wanted civilly discussed. yes, in the past I didn't like joke kicks, and I'm still not fond of them, but since before now no issue like this one had come up I was happy to leave them alone as that's what the consensus was, so thanks for thinking this was all just because I wanted it for some reason, it wasn't. I was just reacting to a situation that showcased an issue. So, all in all, my feelings are hurt, I just want to talk about the issue in question, and I'd like to see you do so as well instead of slinging shit at me. 12:02, December 23, 2015 (UTC) Personally, I don't mind kick jokes. The only times they annoy me is when it is done repeatedly (which is a rare occurrence, but it's still something that shouldn't be done). However, bans shouldn't be used as a joke ever IMO. This occurrence with Exacri is a reason why. It was honestly confusing as to whether or not it was in jest (considering that the few joke bans there have been were removed almost instantly). 01:41, December 23, 2015 (UTC)