Forum:What to do with tips

Due to many people recently removing tips from articles and some things contradicting it, I felt like making this forum.

Two forums to propose the removal of tips, tactics and the like have failed. Still, tips and tactics are generally disallowed, as:
 * 1) when someone puts them in an article, they are almost immediately undone
 * 2) if they've been there a while, they are still removed
 * 3) A policy says so.

I want to know which one is the correct way: disallow and thus remove tips, or allow them be. Again, a twice failed proposal is still written on a policy. This doesn't make it very clear. 13:15, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
If it's written on a policy, leave it be. If it's not allowed, it's not allowed. Unless this forum asks for a change in COD:NOT, it's pretty much useless. I'm Commander Shepard and I should go 14:02, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

While some users may deem them necessary, the general consensus and interpretation of COD:NOT is that tactics are not to be placed in mainspace. Shotrocket6 02:41, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

I edit MS VERY FREQUENTLY (I have almost no other kinds of edits), so I think I have a general idea of what is allowed. I think general tips, such as how perks can help a weapon and how good/shitty its attachments are, I think are not really subjective if they simply state their (dis)advantages. Specific setups and such are NOT allowed though. Just my opinion, ofc I could be wrong. That's just my policy when I edit weapon pages. 03:39, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

I stand by some tips being allowed and if users deem it necessary COD:IAR could be used to re-add such tips, such as suggesting Sleight of Hand be used for long reload time weapons. And as far as i'm concerned due to both forums failing, tips/tactics sections should still be there in the first place since if they weren't allowed under COD:NOT, the forums shouldn't have even been necessary.. Carb 0Stop Censorship SOPA'd 04:41, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Make a tips and tactics forum, is it that hard? Block "tips" in all titles and headings using abuse filters and that's that sorted. 17:40, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

The Watercooler can be used to share tips and the like, Main Space is for specific and un-opinionated information. 20:27, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Sort of adding on to this I've noticed that a lot of pages have walkthoughs on them, mainly the CoD 1 - CoD:WaW ones, although they are creeping in onsome of the more recent games as well. This seems like something that should be getting rewritten. 18:04, January 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ignore this comment, after a recent occurance I do not think they need to be dealt with. 11:42, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Things like what attachments/perks work best with certain weapons are fine (ie: SoH is best used with LMGs), but extremely specific tips to maps, singleplayer levels and weapons shouldn't be allowed. Conqueror of all Zombies 02:55, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

TIPS =/= STRATEGY GUIDE. The Zombie Strategy pages, which we got rid of, were STRATEGY GUIDES. Little bulletpoint tips on articles are NOT STRATEGIES 19:05, January 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * Tips are strategies. Conqueror of all Zombies 02:15, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ Shotrocket6 03:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * No they are not. Until you can come up with a dictionary definition or thesaurus entry which groups tips and strategies together, they remain 2 different things. I'm dumbfounded that you decided to ignore what I just said, maybe I should have made it bigger. 19:50, February 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tips are highly opinionated, same with strategies. The Zombie "Strategy" pages where just the same few strategies changed a little bit each time. Tips are the same. Plus, Strategy Guides give tips on how to play a game, so if you think tips aren't strategies, then they are an extention of strategies. Or just strategies condensed. Conqueror of all Zombies 04:19, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I always thought tips were pretty unbiased. I don't see what's wrong with having "If you're stuck on blank, try doing blank." 05:04, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Zombie startegy guides were just that though, they weren't tips like "Double Tap root beer helps on HK21" they were "Buy X at round Y" and so on. Tips should be fine as long as they are universal, for example "Slight of Hand helps with LMGs long reload times" would be good, but "In my experiance Slight of hand helps the AK-47 get kills" would not be acceptable. 11:41, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Per CoaZ and Sam, though I don't like having a different section for the acceptable tips. On weapons for example, they are good in the "Overview" part. 12:16, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * While they aren't exactly the same, they're damn close. Per CoaZ and Shot. 04:31, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

It seems like the majority of users favor either complete removal of tips or partial integration. Shall we put it to a vote? Shotrocket6 10:37, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. 12:23, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why people think that removing 50% of the text on articles because they contain "tips" dumbfounds me. Sorry, but who thought this would be a good idea? 12:44, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * I prefer quality over quantity. 12:45, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

From MG36:

"The MG36 has fairly average statistics such as moderate rate of fire, recoil, and damage values. It does have one exceptional characteristic, however, sporting the fastest reload time of any LMGs, but only slightly faster than the L86 LSW and with a longer empty reload and add time.

''The MG36 resets exceptionally fast after firing, so using fast single-shot bursts gives it very potent stopping power over medium to longer ranges. Fully automatic fire is not advised unless at very close range. With the Grip and/or the Kick proficiency, the weapon gains much needed accuracy allowing more rounds to hit the target at a longer range. The weapon's lower rate of fire can be fixed by implementing the Rapid Fire attachment, however some accuracy will be sacrificed with the added recoil. Going prone with the MG36 will (like other LMG's) reduce recoil to very low levels, allowing for fully automatic fire up to very long ranges."''

[insert tip removal here]

"The MG36 has fairly average statistics such as moderate rate of fire, recoil, and damage values. It does have one exceptional characteristic, however, sporting the fastest reload time of any LMGs, but only slightly faster than the L86 LSW and with a longer empty reload and add time.

The MG36 resets exceptionally fast after firing."

Everything removed could either be counted as a tip or a tactic (and don't complain now, I asserted tips were not tactics, but people complained).

Isn't that just insanely poor of an idea? To remove so much from articles? 13:01, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking about tips: "Go prone with LMGs, it helps a lot.". Giving an ideal of a weapon's practical use and how it performs in its overview section is different. And also, you were talking about strategies. Now you're talking about tips. Whatever. 13:12, February 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * But tips and strategies are the same! Lots of people made that clear to me after I asserted that they weren't above! And now people are telling me they're different? What's it going to be? Also, going prone with LMGs in MW3 does help a lot, so it's a valid tip. 13:16, February 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * "Tips are strategies."

- Conqueror of all Zombies 02:15, February 1, 2012 (UTC)



- Shotrocket6 03:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * So as you can see, this forum isn't going anywhere fast. 13:18, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyway, the thing that would be removed on MG36 isn't exactly consistent of tips or strategies. It just gives how the MG36 plays, not a few bulletpoints on what you should do with it. Also, regardless of on how correct it is, it's still bad. 13:23, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * So correct things are bad? 14:13, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. The fact it's correct has nothing to do with it. 14:16, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Uh. So we don't allow correct information now or something? 15:18, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * ... It's still a tip. I'm not saying "Hey let's remove only the incorrect tips and let the correct ones stay." What do you not understand? 15:22, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Obviously I don't understand quite a lot. I don't understand why it's a good idea to take an axe and chop down articles, I don't understand why people think that it is, and I don't understand why it's necessary. 19:09, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because a wiki is meant to be comprised of factual information. Shotrocket6 21:04, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Please explain how correct tips do not constitute "factual information". 21:06, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * The term "tip" cannot be classified as correct or incorrect. There is a fine line between opinionated tips and factual information. Shotrocket6 20:34, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Solution
Why not allow certain tips into articles, tips that are universally known and accepted, like what Sam mentioned earlier in the sense of "Sleigh of Hand is useful with LMG's because of their long reload" or "Juggernog is useful for getting to higher rounds of zombies". Those tips would be allowed, but tips like "The Intervention is good when using Sitrep, Scavenger, and Stopping Power" would be kept out, as they are clearly very opinionated. 21:18, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

The line between what is good and acceptable and what is opinionated can at times be very unclear. 13:53, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Idea of good and acceptable it things that are fairly obvious, "Quickdraw is good for quickscoping". Something that is opinionated would be "Quickdraw should be used only to quickscope, as it is rather poor with any other use." 22:06, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Adding on to Damac, a tip is basically a fact and a fact giving something helpful, but in no way telling the player to do it, such as: "Sleight of Hand is recommended for the slow reload time", wheras if it tries to instruct the player it's not really a tip, similar to Damacs example: "This LMG should only be used with Sleight of Hand, Quickdraw and Stalker because all th other perks don't help" is too opinionated and not really a tip any more. 18:50, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Vote
Remove all tips, per the forum.

Support

 * 1)  14:12, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because tips are not strategies, also, poorly written things get re-written correctly, not removed. 20:55, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just above you said "But tips and strategies are the same!"... 14:19, February 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I beleive that was sarcasm based on the event. 14:23, February 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm Commander Shepard and I should go 02:31, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Where in Policy does it say "no tips"? 03:59, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

 * Um, because he cares about the wiki? I'm Commander Shepard and I should go 02:32, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, because he cares about the wiki? I'm Commander Shepard and I should go 02:32, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, because he cares about the wiki? I'm Commander Shepard and I should go 02:32, February 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, because he cares about the wiki? I'm Commander Shepard and I should go 02:32, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Comments
Shotrocket6 20:34, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ I feel its a bit early for a vote as well. 18:54, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Compromise
It doesn't seem like anybody is willing to change their opinions very much based on the opposition's reasoning, so I'd like to propose a compromise.

We already know that strategies aren't allowed on mainspace articles. Since that is such a clear-cut guideline and tips are not, then for all intensive purposes, let's consider them separate.

Now: it's quite obvious that tips can be useful to readers, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to claim that a majority of an article's body would be deleted if they weren't to be included.

Several users (including myself) brought up the point that tips can be very opinionated and can virtually destroy the validity of an article if they are not properly placed in context. While this is true, there is definitely a way to incorporate the useful information present in these articles in a way that will not contradict current opinions and guidelines.

I propose we allow tips to be placed into articles, but with a number of guidelines establishing the difference between a good tip and a bad one: I believe these definitions of what a good tip is should help us divert the bad ones from the mainspace articles and allow us to move forward knowing that we can still add this useful information to the articles should they be relevant. What do you all think? Shotrocket6 22:11, February 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Tips must contain at least some factual information.
 * 2) No tips comparing usage between players will be permitted (e.g. "players mostly prefer to use the Red Dot Sight because it decreases clutter aroung the iron sights").
 * 3) No tips using the words "recommend" or "should" to push an opinion of something will be permitted.
 * 4) No tips negatively defining or describing the subject of the article will be permitted, unless it is comparing it to something of the same class (e.g. "The KSG 12 has the slowest firing rate of the shotguns in MW3" would be acceptable, but "The poor fire rate of the KSG 12 renders it a poor choice when compared to the other shotguns in MW3" would not).
 * 5) Adjectives used must be backed up by facts (e.g. "The MG36 has moderate base damage" would not be acceptable, but "The MG36 has moderate base damage at 30 hit points [...]" would).
 * 6) No purely opinionated tips will be permitted (goes without saying, but having it in writing solidifies it).

Seems fair enough. 23:11, February 12, 2012 (UTC)