Forum:Unamed Middle Eastern Country locations

I believe it is time we finally dealt with this page. After looking at in-game screenshots and satellite views in Google Maps I have deduced where each mission takes place. While it has been debated before this forum will spilt the page into 3 pages as the Middle Eastern segment of the game takes place in 3 different countries. While no name is never given it is never not given, it is never stated the entire Middle East is one unified country, nor do any quotes refer to it as such. Below you can see my images and any further supporting proof that these locations match the real life counter parts.

The Coup and The Bog -, Saudi Arabia

Geography matches up in terms of location and nearby islands, also in-game it's stated in The Bog there is a highway that goes right though the town, Al Qunfudhah also has this highway going though it.

Charlie Don't Surf -, Kuwait

This one is down to pure geography.

War Pig -, Saudi Arabia

This one is a bit fuzzy, and I'm sorry for that. But as can be made it, it's central Saudi Arabia, and due West of the centre of that "pokey out bit". To further cement the claim Riyadh is the capital of Saudi Arabia, before this level this city is called the capital.

Shock and Awe -, Iraq

Down to geography again. Also a news reporter calls this the capital, this is the capital of Khuzestan Province, Iran. And since War Pig was also in the Capital, either the Capital got up and walked, or this is a different country.

So basically, let's split up the page and put it into the correct segments. And if anyone wants to say "But it says The Middle East on the scan" I would like to point out that's just the region, which all three countries are in. 16:58, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Yeah I think we should do this. It's from the game and although they're never mentioned, these are definitely where the missions take place according to the levels' preamble. I updating the article to reflect these findings. Nice work. 17:12, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't this still technically speculation, since it's an inference rather than anything buried in the game files? 17:35, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Game files refers to some levels as Saudi Arabia. And since the world doesn't like shifting around every 5 minutes, the Geography isn't that easy to call speculative. 17:57, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's true, but it also directly contradicts the game's assertion that all the events take place in, to quote the opening cinematic, a "small, oil rich nation". Unless Al-Asad somehow has the resources to take over large areas of the Middle East in a few days. 18:15, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been looking for that quote, and it's illusive as Ghost's fireproof vest quote. 18:28, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Here you are. 18:30, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't find it in any of the transcripts though. So either we've missed a line, or that line is faked for that video. 18:56, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its only used in the intro to CoD4 I think. That intro has a ton of differences from the actual game so it might not be a good thing to use imo. 19:02, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * We already use it on the page for the country itself as part of the evidence for calling it "oil rich" in addition to the evidence of the offshore rigs. 19:09, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking over the intro video, all you can make it is "US Marines were given the order to invade the small...", but if you cross-reference that in-game, the first level US Marines enter The Middle East is Charlie Don't Surf, which has been tagged as Kuwait, which is a small country, unless we're willing to call the entire Middle East small. 19:11, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Which brings me back to the argument I made about the absurdity of implying that Al-Asad was able to conquer much of the Arabian peninsular in around three days, if not less. 19:13, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Menendez was in multiple countries with his private army. Should we call any location he was in "Unamed Earth Country". He doesn't need to own the country to be there. 19:16, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a strawman and you know it. Let's actually try and dissect the argument, rather than applying the slippery slop fallacy. But in any case, there is the strong implication that this is all territory controlled by Al-Asad's forces, rather than them simply being holed up there. 19:24, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have provided in-game screenshots along with real world geography, as well as in-game files referring to cut levels in the area as "Saudi Arabia" and the in-game quote shown at the beginning clearly refers to Kuwait, the first mission where you invade the Middle East. You're speculating he gained his power in the Middle East in 3 days, yet prior quotes claimed he is "Currently the second most powerful man in the Middle East.", meaning he could easily of gained this power before his coup. The argument you gave isn't backed up by solid evidence and is mainly made up of speculation of your own. I'm providing actual evidence in this forum from the game to back up the locations of these missions - it's not speculative, and even if it were, using your own speculation leads to a circular debate. 13:33, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * If the forum was about assigning random place names to these cities then yeah, it would be speculation, but there's clear evidence here as to what cities they are. I wouldn't call it speculation. 19:17, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Good analysis of where this country could be on here, which you could find useful: http://metalzerofour.tumblr.com/post/44223248500/call-of-duty-4 19:13, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also this evidence seems to suggest War Pig and The Bog are in competently different cities which is 100% wrong. 19:20, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Those are in-game screenshots, I doubt the game is wrong. 19:21, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * But this is a case where the cinematic contradicts the level, and I'm more inclined to believe the level. Unless Arbrams tanks in the MWverse have the ability to teleport everything within a kilometer, since nothing about the locale changes despite what the cinematic would have you believe. 19:24, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Per ravens. I think the gameplay actually being in the same city overrides some random satellite imagery from a cutscene. 19:35, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

I agree Owen1983 (talk) 19:42, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a few differing opinions going on here. Whom are you agreeing with? 19:44, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, slight change, I've been looking over War Pig and Bog, I'm now changing my War Pig location to here:

Which is here. Makes more sense to walk to than the capital, and looking over the transcript it does say they're still pushing towards the capital, which would explain why it's not the Capital itself. 20:19, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, looks good. 12:25, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

At the very least, I believe it is appropriate to have this information in the mainspace somewhere, as it is definitely worth mentioning. 12:25, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose I'll agree with that, but I'm still a little iffy on assuming these countries to be correct. The fact that it's a fictional universe means that the real-life countries might not even exist in the game. Joe Copp 02:04, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's based on real life history and geography, it's never tried to input a made-up country, nor has it ever tried to take one out. 10:20, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * "Based on" does not mean "is". Unless we have some sort of proof that it is identical to the real world, I would not recommend assuming it is. Joe Copp 02:52, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well on the ISS Mission Earth looked like Earth. And all the locations have been put exactly where there are in real life. Asking for proof that CoD takes place on the same planet is getting a bit stupid. As stated earlier, cut files refer to missions in this area as Saudi Arabia. 11:48, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're still basing your findings on an assumption . Articles of encyclopedic nature should not revolve around potentially incorrect information, no matter how small a point it may be. Also, to suggest it takes place on another planet is absurd, but to imagine that IW would have created new countries to avoid tastelessness and inaccuracies is highly plausible. Joe Copp 01:56, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * And the "Unamed Middle Eastern country" is a page made on assumption. Because it never explicitly said a name we've assumed IW has tried to make its own country, but in a universe that is based on our own it is far more plausible that the locations are based on real life places than the wikis own assumption that it is its own country. 08:19, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then what would have been the point of not naming the country in the first place? Joe Copp 23:40, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a question to ask Infinity Ward. Perhaps it was simpler just to call the entire area "The Middle East" instead of giving exact locations. A lot of the nav points just give a general location as opposed to an exact name. Point being they never named it "Unnamed Middle Eastern Country", in fact they never called the entire area a country. Just because IW left that fact out we've assumed that the entire Middle East must be a country. 17:25, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Plausible gaff
One thing I noticed that looks off is War Pigs locater, this is quite far Northwest of The Bog's. I believe (this one doesn't have as much backing, so this one does need some faith put into it) this may of been done purely to make it look like you moved (During The Bog you have to head Northwest to meet up with War Pig). Now if we're willing to call that 1 location a gaff, then every other location makes sense. If not, then I still have all the above in-game locations and geography. 12:15, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah imo they probs did it just to show that they moved northwest 12:46, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Why not call it The Middle East (Modern Warfare series)? The game calls it The Middle East, why can't we refer to it like that instead of Unnamed Middle Eastern Country?  00:50, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Since all of the Modern Warfare locations are near exact to the locations that Sam found, I think it is safe to say the levels take place in those countries. Call of Duty has made multiple mistakes before with real life info, so it would make sense that the Bog to War Pig transition was just to simulate movement. As long as that is noted in the trivia of those articles, I support naming the countries of what Sam suggested. AntiScootaTwo (talk) 00:59, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Me too. The earlier comment was like a "Plan B"  01:09, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

I think I found another gaff, while we're on the subject. As Sam said, "The Bog" apparently takes place in Al Qunfudhah, Saudi Arabia. But according to the opening scene for the next mission, "Hunted", Jackson and co. have somehow moved to Iran. Sgt. S.S. (talk) 16:22, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * No gaff. At the end of The Bog + War Pig you're extracted via helicopter. 22:35, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not the transition you're thinking of. He's talking about the cutscene that separates The Bog and Hunted, while the team is digging in around the tank. 22:36, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * As in the one that's mentioned as the header of this section? Also he mentioned that it was the transition from The Bog's area to Hunted's area. 23:04, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Misunderstood Hunted as one of the Middle East missions, but anyway, that's just a general sweep of the Middle Eastern area, it doesn't say "Tracking..." like most of the other sat images do. 23:07, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not see what has changed since the last time we tried to do this. The inherent problem is that you are applying traits of our universe to that of the Call of Duty universe, which we know to be both different and fictional. Articles should be written from an in-universe perspective, so as to treat them as real and actual entities – otherwise, they are not particularly notable.

I appreciate the research that you have put into this, but all we are doing is speculating on geographic placement (something we know to be incorrect based on the immense transition in later levels, such as from the Altai Mountains to the Russia–Georgia border). As it stands, there is no source material from the series that would indicate where in the world these missions are taking place in, and in the grand scheme of things, the implication is that we will never know because it is not important. The closest we ever come is "a small, oil-rich country," which is an ironic description given the spread of Act I of Call of Duty 4.

The fact that it is unnamed should not really bother us. The ambiguity was intended and, in this case, is the most accurate, in-universe labeling of the country. 17:23, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The difference is in that forum I tried to name the entire region Kuwait, this time I've named at least 3 countries. Also your IRL Vs Notable debate is flawed in that many of our vehicles have not been explicitly named in game yet we use their real name, and none have been deleted for being unnotable. Also I do not understand your point about transitions for Russia seem mute here, since in those transitions they always had a helicopter or other form of transport, and in fact all of those places have a real geographical location set up. The very first Call of Duty's were set in World War 2, so we know Call of Duty is set in our world, and not some fictitious one, ergo we know real world locations are correct in terms of game. And again, there is source material in the game itself that calls certain cut levels "Saudi Arabia", yet we have no proof Infinity Ward wanted the entire place to be 1 country, nor that it no name was given for the sake of being ambiguous. And going back to the "Small country" quote, that doesn't exist, I don't know where it came from, but it doesn't. There is a quote in the game opening where you hear Marines have been given permission to enter a small country, and the first place you enter as the Marines is Kuwait, which is a small country, the entire area itself isn't small, in fact the entire Middle East covers 90% of Northern America, so it's hardly a "Small oil rich country". And finally it comes down to tracker grammar. Whenever we see the Marines it's "The Middle East", which shows it's just talking about the area and not a country, in a similar fashion it doesn't say "The Russia" or "The Germany". In short this time round I've put more evidence into this and have more backing than my last forum. Until someone can show me something from Infinity Ward telling me it's supposed to just be "Middle East" I feel we should use the real geographical locations. 19:35, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Whether it is one country or several, it is still conjecture on our part. Many, if not all, vehicles of the series are actually specifically named, whether in gameplay, dialogue, loading screens, or game files. This Middle Eastern country is intentionally left unnamed in all source material for the Modern Warfare series, so to an extent, assuming there is a 1:1 transfer of regions from that universe to our own is being somewhat disingenuous.


 * We also know that the Modern Warfare continuity is that of a different reality, just as the Black Ops universe is. They share common points of history with regard to major events of the past, but to surmise that our universe and these two fictional ones are the same because World War II occurs in all three is absurd.


 * The geographic placement of Call of Duty 4 loading screens is also incredibly inaccurate. I mention the ones from Act III specifically since it makes itself obvious there: the beginning of "All In" resumes gameplay exactly where it left off in "Ultimatum"... yet the player is somehow more than 1000km away from where he was less than a minute ago – both in-game and out-of-game. The point here is that loading screen geopolitics are not very reliable.


 * Cut levels are not all that indicative of the present state of the Modern Warfare universe because, well, they are cut. They do not exist in the final product, and are thus irrelevant to the canon of the series.


 * As far as the source material quote that I cited, which you have decided that I have made up, I figured you might want to have a listen for yourself:


 * Call of Duty 4 - Female Newscaster's Report in "Blackout"


 * Apparently we are dealing with "a small but oil-rich nation," and while the smallness can be disputed by the often-inaccurate loading screens, the logic would follow that Al-Fulani and Al-Asad would be leaders of one country, not several. We really cannot make too many assumptions about it, because the details are never elucidated. Maybe it is Kuwait. Maybe it is Iraq. Maybe it is both. Maybe it is the newly-found country of Kuwaitaqistan. We certainly do not know, and playing matching games with our own world map is missing the point entirely: the country is never given a name because the developers chose not to give it one.


 * The present name of the article is not a case of semantics or pedantry, but rather all that is knowable about the region in question:


 * Unnamed - No game of the Modern Warfare series has named this country. It is not found in gameplay, dialogue, loading screens, or game files. Act I green text identifiers for the USMC never specify the region at the beginning of missions unlike those of the SAS. All in-universe material has not identified or specified the name of the country to us, the audience, and it thus remains a mystery.
 * Middle Eastern - This is the only descriptor we hear repeatedly from in-universe characters. Loading screens label this "The Middle East," which, while it could actually be the most boring name for a country ever, is taken to be a general definition. As far as specificity goes, this is the most we know to be certain.
 * Country - Perhaps it is a federation or union, but we use this term to be as general as possible. The newscaster and other assorted characters tend to refer the region as a single entity rather than several, and this is logical considering Al-Fulani or Al-Asad is understood to be the sovereign of a particular nation.


 * In summary, the in-universe perspective we should be writing in suggests ambiguity rather than real-world equivalency. 16:41, June 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Per everything Bovell is saying, this basically proves that it's one country and not multiple. 17:16, June 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * I checked. The first place is the correct place. The other is the Tank going to the location of the mission, also the "camera" zooms in the The First Location, and the mission starts.

21:46, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The tank doesn't move. And as I've stated, no matter the actual location the tracker shows, it's wrong and just used to showcase movement by the character. Unless you want to vote for option 1 then it should not be an issue. 21:49, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * In the cutscene before Shock and Awe, they are showing the Shock and Awe location. Also, how do you know that the tank isn't moving?   21:58, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because they clearly state it's broken, and you start War Pig where you ended The Bog. 22:00, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Bog is in the same place as The Coup and War Pig is in the middle of Saudi Arabia, the camera zooms into Jackson in the middle of Saudi Arabia, the place were the the tank is is just the tank, not the whole mission location, I can see the squares below the tank moving. I'm telling the truth. In the cutscene of Hunted there's a gaff, it shows Jackson in the middle of Iran, but in the cutscene of Shock and Awe, the place were is locating Jackson is in Shock and Awe, the title of Shock and Awe says 18:00, like in the cutscene. 22:08, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, the point of this section claims that The Coup, The Bog and War Pig are all the same location. Also it is clearly shown the tank does not move because it can't. The point of the Bog is to get to War Pig because it's been immobilized. There's no way the Marines could walk that far, but on a tracker it makes it appear like we moved to get to the tank. And someone brought up Hunted, that's just a general location of The Middle East, not a locater tracker. 22:12, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * I found something. At the end of The Bog. This conversation happens:
 * Lt Vasquez: Command LZ secure. Bring the engineers and let's get this tank moving.
 * Command: Roger that. They're on their way. Good Work. Out.
 * Also, they get to the tank. The fix it. They enter, they go to War Pig's location. In the War Pig cutscene, they appear in the middle of nowhere going to the middle of Saudi Arabia, not in the location of The Coup and The Bog. The plot in the page of War Pig says that the engineers fixed it and they went to the middle, trying to push forward into enemy territory.
 *  22:21, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * They fixed it, and it moved during War Pig. War Pig itself starts where The Bog ended. Also if you look at the map and the date, it would mean that the Marines and 1 tank went several hundred miles in 1 night, which further strengthens that it's a gaff that it moved that far. 22:38, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * War Pig happens at 16:30 while The Bog happens at 5:00. 11 hours. The camera zooms in, in the middle of Saudi Arabia. Also a distance like that, it would get there inm 9 hours.  23:00, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * - It's not possible to walk as far as they did in 11 hours, and with only 1 tank there's no way they could drive. Not to mention most of the time would be taken up with waiting for the engineers and having to repair the tank. Although it's already shown that The Bog ends where War Pig begins, the timelines clearly showcase that there's no way they could get to the capital in that amount of time, hence why I believe this particular locater beacon is just a gaff on IWs part to give it the impression the player has moved. 23:10, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lt. Vasquez: Command this is Lt Vasquez. War Pig is en route. We're not missing this party.
 * 23:32, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * "en route" just means they were heading there, and the point of War Pig is to cover them while they move, but the level does not start over 1,000 KM away from The Bog. 23:36, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * But what happens in the place were it zooms? Why does it zoom there? 23:41, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Like I said at the begining of this section. It's likely just a gaff to make it look like you've actually moved. 23:48, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Why would it be? They didn't lie in the places the characters were. 23:51, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because it gives the player the impression you've actually moved. You move Northwest in the mission and the map shows a Northwest location. It's not lying, it's just a minor gaff on IWs side. IF you don't like that you can vote for option 1 instead of option 2. 23:52, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * How do we know that they didn't move?   23:58, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I already noted why. The tank is immobile, and it starts in the same location that you ended the Bog. 00:06, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's safe to assume the tank is immobile, considering that makes up part of the mission anyway. 00:12, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Written locations on Transcripts/Level Pages
Once we get the final agrement on the exact locations of the cities, feel free to apply them on the transcript [Titles] as well as the cooresponding levels' pages. EvErLoyaLEagLE (talk) 05:26, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Final vote
It's a bit word heavy, so using the old fashioned vote system is an easier way of getting a consensus, so there are 3 options available.
 * 1) Firstly we change the locations that I provided.
 * 2) Secondly we change the locations to those I provided, but consider War Pig's location a gaff on IWs side to showcase movement.
 * 3) Lastly we leave the name as is.

Option 2

 * Is this inherently a problem? We should not feel obliged to give things names merely because they do not have one; we document entities as they are, not as we wish them to be. 04:10, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * We're not really giving them names for the sake of giving them names. We're giving them names because we found evidence for their names from cutscenes for those missions. 12:25, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I would dispute that given the odd discomfort that seems to be expressed in this thread toward having something unnamed, but I suppose that is beside the point.
 * The purported evidence is not really evidence if it requires merging two universes into one. The inductive reasoning makes the assumption that all countries in the Modern Warfare continuity, particularly that of the Middle East, are the same as those found in our reality, and have a 1:1 transfer. This makes little sense given the story arc of the trilogy, which features a volatile world with an ever-changing big picture.
 * The research conducted in this thread cherry-picks characteristics of the Modern Warfare universe and that of our own to try to reach a conclusion and alleviate some sort of perceived dissonance. Either the two universes are separate or the same; stuff like this is quite binary. Since it would seem the intention is to suspend our in-universe perspective for the sake of naming a country that is never named, I will work on the assumption that we are treating the Modern Warfare universe as our own. This actually only serves to further complicate matters:
 * The country is never referred to in the plural form. Unless Al-Fulani was a sweeping reformer that democratized the governments of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait while president of Iraq, and then united them as one entity, this does not support the premise. I reckon the Saudis might have something to say about their capital being moved to Iraq, too.
 * The geopolitical scene is dramatically different. It is the developers' predictions from 2007 about a fictional world in 2011. The logic holds for all game universes; if my Europa Universalis match depicts the Germans taking over most of Asia in 2015, the borders of the world are not going to be the same. Here, we seem to be assuming that the international boundary lines of a fictional universe—taking place in a divergent timeline—are one in the same with Google Maps.
 * OpFor is OpFor for a reason. Even if we are to entertain the idea that the Great Federation of Saudi Kuwaq was usurped by Al-Asad, the real-world mirroring would render the specific army of a sovereign nation. However, the OpFor is paramilitary organization, and this label avoids portrayal as the army of a particular nation or coalition. Again, the option to name the country is passed over.
 * Mountains cannot be moved. I will again cite the lack of correlation between loading screens and gameplay narrative, made especially apparent in Act III of Call of Duty 4. Loading cinematics depict a journey of hundreds upon hundreds of kilometers for Bravo Team, but gameplay, in addition to green text identifiers, support the notion of relatively little movement. If the loading screens are to be treated as a higher level of canon, then we better update Russia's article to state their five year plan to relocate the Altay Mountains, and the SAS's invention of faster-than-light travel.
 * Call of Duty 4 has a relatively simple storyline, with the biggest twist being the death of a player character. There is not a whole lot to read into, and generally the plot exists to further gameplay, rather than the other way around. We are never told the name of the country because: a) it is not important to players, and b) the ambiguity avoids complication of the plot. Real-world equivalency was never the stated intention of the Modern Warfare narrative, as we, the audience, are asked for suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy and experience the world being created for us. We are supposed to write articles in a similar manner, and if comparing the world map of a fictional universe to one found online is the more attractive option for this wiki, then we should at least be consistent. 21:39, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Fine I'll support it, until I find some intel, let's keep it like this. 22:15, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2)  22:40, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Per everybody. Evidence is clear and the War Pig issue could easily be explained to clear any confusion.  23:37, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Call of Duty 4 has a relatively simple storyline, with the biggest twist being the death of a player character. There is not a whole lot to read into, and generally the plot exists to further gameplay, rather than the other way around. We are never told the name of the country because: a) it is not important to players, and b) the ambiguity avoids complication of the plot. Real-world equivalency was never the stated intention of the Modern Warfare narrative, as we, the audience, are asked for suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy and experience the world being created for us. We are supposed to write articles in a similar manner, and if comparing the world map of a fictional universe to one found online is the more attractive option for this wiki, then we should at least be consistent. 21:39, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Fine I'll support it, until I find some intel, let's keep it like this. 22:15, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2)  22:40, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Per everybody. Evidence is clear and the War Pig issue could easily be explained to clear any confusion.  23:37, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Per everybody. Evidence is clear and the War Pig issue could easily be explained to clear any confusion.  23:37, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Option 3

 * 1)   (Changing to strong support per everything bovell said above) Even though you provided a lot of evidence, it still seems to me like it's speculation considering we don't know that it's meant to be 3 separate countries.  22:02, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * We also don't know it's meant to be 1 country, which also speculative information. 22:03, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * From the evidence we have, it is a greater leap of faith to state that it is several, real-world countries than a single, fictitious one. 16:41, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * And what evidence is that? Because none of it has been given in this forum. Just 1 fact that we presume it's 'supposed to be ambiguous. 18:00, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * The games, perhaps? The material that is supposed to be our primary source? I composed a detailed reply to your suppositions in the main discussion section. In it, I used Call of Duty 4, which can be categorized in the highest level of canon for the Modern Warfare continuity, to support the established title of the article. The basis for your renaming proposal stands entirely on matching characteristics of a fictional country in a fictional universe to that of our own reality, a a perspective which we are to avoid when possible.  19:02, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * And I've also drawn from the same well. We're both using what the game has said and use it to fit our own debate. Everything you've said can also be used to support my argument. 19:31, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * If I may respectfully disagree: you are extrapolating material from the game and are applying it to real-world geopolitics. If we are to disregard the existence of our universe and instead examine matters through a Modern Warfare universe lens, it is simply a Middle Eastern country, one that we do not know the name of. This is the central tenet of my argument in favor of the status quo, and I will again refer you to my more detailed entry in the main discussion section to avoid repetition.
 * I would also contend that precedent suggests leaving the nation unidentified due to the lack of a start-of-mission, green text location. It is obvious from the loading screen cinematic that "All In," "No Fighting in the War Room," and "Game Over," are nowhere near the Altay Mountains. These missions in particular take place in rapid succession, yet the loading screens depict the first two to be clearly on the Russia–Georgia border, and the final one several hundred kilometers away to the east of the Caspian Sea. Yet, we take the green text identifiers to be the actual location for these articles, over the incredibly misleading loading screen. The USMC missions of Act I are notable in that they never provide a location in the green text, and thus we are again robbed of finding out the name of the place we are invading (a potential commentary on post–9/11 U.S. foreign policy, but I digress).
 * Yes, we both make use of the same source, but your line-of-thought involves real-world equivalency, which would throw the ability to remain in-universe out the window, and conflict with current policy. 20:24, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * If this were true, than why is it we have the locations for TranZit and Die Rise, despite the location never being stated in game we've used real life landmarks to determine their locations, and this is in Zombies mode, which is even further away from real life than the game itself. Getting locations based on real life information is being done on the wiki quite a lot, in fact the only page that doesn't use it is this one. Even the transcripts and the Call of Duty 4 multiplayer maps, such as Showdown use real life locations. 02:35, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know why that is. Do you know why that is? If there's no source material that directly specifies these locations, why are they there? We can put as much "research" as we want behind these conjectures, but at the end of the day, they are still speculation.
 * I really cannot make my argument any more clear, and I risk beating a dead horse at this point. We're not playing some guessing game with the developers to figure out the hidden name to this country. There is no level of established canon that makes reference to the name, and all we know to be true is general descriptors. If the only thing that lends validity to the implementation of your extrapolated assumptions is wiki tradition, then I suggest you motion an update to current policy to indicate the absence of in-universe perspective. 04:10, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well according to our naming policy for weapons, if the name is not given in game, we should use real life names. This is what has been done for maps such as TranZit and Die Rise. The same rules apply here, it's just never been expanded beyond weapons, this can be shown in the fact we utilise the same rule for vehicles. IF you would really like at the end of this forum I can update our naming policy to reflect this. 16:10, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, the IRL policy states we can use a real world persons birth, and I know some people also want to introduce the death dates as well. By right we shouldn't even be comparing them to their real life counter parts since that would also draw a comparison between the game and real life. 16:25, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) I credit Raven's wing for putting it in the most simple of terms: the renaming proposal stands entirely on an inference that we are not supposed to make because it is illogical. The geopolitics that dictate the world of Modern Warfare are entirely separate from our own, and any comparison steps outside the in-universe perspective this wiki is meant to maintain. Just as we cannot use the Modern Warfare trilogy as evidence for matters in our universe, we cannot use our universe as evidence for matters in the Modern Warfare universe.  21:39, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Call of Duty 4 (as well as the Modern Warfare series in general) is in a fictional universe that doesn't really correspond to our own. There are multiple errors and inconsistencies in Call of Duty 4 alone (why G36Cs appear in 1996 Pripyat, how MacMillan and Price were suddenly able to produce a .50 caliber Sniper Rifle, how the Russian Amry is still, after 60 years, using the AK-47), but we generally assume that this is a work of fiction, so in this universe, Russia is still using AKs and RPDs (even though the Real Life Russian Army uses AK-74Ms and RPK-74Ms). The Middle Eastern country was intentionally left unnamed by Infinity Ward, just as the enemy faction was given the vague and unassuming name of "OpFor" (which even that name isn't mentioned in the campaign, it's given in multiplayer to name the faction versing the US Marines). The Cutscene locations are mostly the result of either laziness on IW's part, or they assumed players wouldn't really care (which they don't, as most people don't notice them playing through the game). Therfore, it is best that we leave the country's name as it is. It actually makes less sense trying to turn the Unnamed Country into three seperate real-life countries.  04:51, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but is your main argument that these geographics are wrong because of the guns they're using? That's a moot point. I'm providing evidence as to why they are where they are, while your counter argument is "No, they're not there because Russia uses AK-47s". 18:28, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're missing the point. Call of Duty is filled to the brim with inaccuracies, so we just assume it is set in a serperate universe, because it is simpler to understand it that way than to try and place it in our own universe. Sure, real life events are included in the Call of Duty series, like World War II, the Cold War and the invasion of Panama, but a fictional spin is placed on them (the Nova 6 plot, Raul Menendez, and Fidel Castro's meeting with Dragovitch), because it is set in a fictional timeline and universe of events. What sense would it honestly make to turn a "small, oil rich nation" into a mega-alliance of Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Kuwait? Infinity's Ward's "gaffs" were made because they generally assume the playerbase doesn't care about things like locations, and they are unimportant to the plot and setting regardless. 20:02, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * And when is it stated it's a coalition? Now you're using speculation to bolster your argument. 20:38, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the thing, it's never stated to be anything other than a small oil rich country. However, the locations Infinity Ward put down are spread out over quite a large area, spreading over 3 real-life countries. We're simply lead to assume that this a small country that has been taken iver during a military coup, and that's the only information given to us. We shouldn't assume much more than that. 23:35, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the thing, it's never stated to be anything other than a small oil rich country. However, the locations Infinity Ward put down are spread out over quite a large area, spreading over 3 real-life countries. We're simply lead to assume that this a small country that has been taken iver during a military coup, and that's the only information given to us. We shouldn't assume much more than that. 23:35, June 23, 2013 (UTC)