Forum:Unamed Middle Eastern Country locations

I believe it is time we finally dealt with this page. After looking at in-game screenshots and satellite views in Google Maps I have deduced where each mission takes place. While it has been debated before this forum will spilt the page into 3 pages as the Middle Eastern segment of the game takes place in 3 different countries. While no name is never given it is never not given, it is never stated the entire Middle East is one unified country, nor do any quotes refer to it as such. Below you can see my images and any further supporting proof that these locations match the real life counter parts.

The Coup and The Bog -, Saudi Arabia

Geography matches up in terms of location and nearby islands, also in-game it's stated in The Bog there is a highway that goes right though the town, Al Qunfudhah also has this highway going though it.

Charlie Don't Surf -, Kuwait

This one is down to pure geography.

War Pig -, Saudi Arabia

This one is a bit fuzzy, and I'm sorry for that. But as can be made it, it's central Saudi Arabia, and due West of the centre of that "pokey out bit". To further cement the claim Riyadh is the capital of Saudi Arabia, before this level this city is called the capital.

Shock and Awe -, Iraq

Down to geography again. Also a news reporter calls this the capital, this is the capital of Khuzestan Province, Iran. And since War Pig was also in the Capital, either the Capital got up and walked, or this is a different country.

So basically, let's split up the page and put it into the correct segments. And if anyone wants to say "But it says The Middle East on the scan" I would like to point out that's just the region, which all three countries are in. 16:58, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Yeah I think we should do this. It's from the game and although they're never mentioned, these are definitely where the missions take place according to the levels' preamble. I updating the article to reflect these findings. Nice work. 17:12, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't this still technically speculation, since it's an inference rather than anything buried in the game files? 17:35, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Game files refers to some levels as Saudi Arabia. And since the world doesn't like shifting around every 5 minutes, the Geography isn't that easy to call speculative. 17:57, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's true, but it also directly contradicts the game's assertion that all the events take place in, to quote the opening cinematic, a "small, oil rich nation". Unless Al-Asad somehow has the resources to take over large areas of the Middle East in a few days. 18:15, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been looking for that quote, and it's illusive as Ghost's fireproof vest quote. 18:28, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Here you are. 18:30, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't find it in any of the transcripts though. So either we've missed a line, or that line is faked for that video. 18:56, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its only used in the intro to CoD4 I think. That intro has a ton of differences from the actual game so it might not be a good thing to use imo. 19:02, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * We already use it on the page for the country itself as part of the evidence for calling it "oil rich" in addition to the evidence of the offshore rigs. 19:09, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking over the intro video, all you can make it is "US Marines were given the order to invade the small...", but if you cross-reference that in-game, the first level US Marines enter The Middle East is Charlie Don't Surf, which has been tagged as Kuwait, which is a small country, unless we're willing to call the entire Middle East small. 19:11, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Which brings me back to the argument I made about the absurdity of implying that Al-Asad was able to conquer much of the Arabian peninsular in around three days, if not less. 19:13, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Menendez was in multiple countries with his private army. Should we call any location he was in "Unamed Earth Country". He doesn't need to own the country to be there. 19:16, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a strawman and you know it. Let's actually try and dissect the argument, rather than applying the slippery slop fallacy. But in any case, there is the strong implication that this is all territory controlled by Al-Asad's forces, rather than them simply being holed up there. 19:24, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have provided in-game screenshots along with real world geography, as well as in-game files referring to cut levels in the area as "Saudi Arabia" and the in-game quote shown at the beginning clearly refers to Kuwait, the first mission where you invade the Middle East. You're speculating he gained his power in the Middle East in 3 days, yet prior quotes claimed he is "Currently the second most powerful man in the Middle East.", meaning he could easily of gained this power before his coup. The argument you gave isn't backed up by solid evidence and is mainly made up of speculation of your own. I'm providing actual evidence in this forum from the game to back up the locations of these missions - it's not speculative, and even if it were, using your own speculation leads to a circular debate. 13:33, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * If the forum was about assigning random place names to these cities then yeah, it would be speculation, but there's clear evidence here as to what cities they are. I wouldn't call it speculation. 19:17, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Good analysis of where this country could be on here, which you could find useful: http://metalzerofour.tumblr.com/post/44223248500/call-of-duty-4 19:13, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also this evidence seems to suggest War Pig and The Bog are in competently different cities which is 100% wrong. 19:20, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Those are in-game screenshots, I doubt the game is wrong. 19:21, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * But this is a case where the cinematic contradicts the level, and I'm more inclined to believe the level. Unless Arbrams tanks in the MWverse have the ability to teleport everything within a kilometer, since nothing about the locale changes despite what the cinematic would have you believe. 19:24, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Per ravens. I think the gameplay actually being in the same city overrides some random satellite imagery from a cutscene. 19:35, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

I agree Owen1983 (talk) 19:42, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a few differing opinions going on here. Whom are you agreeing with? 19:44, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, slight change, I've been looking over War Pig and Bog, I'm now changing my War Pig location to here:

Which is here. Makes more sense to walk to than the capital, and looking over the transcript it does say they're still pushing towards the capital, which would explain why it's not the Capital itself. 20:19, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, looks good. 12:25, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

At the very least, I believe it is appropriate to have this information in the mainspace somewhere, as it is definitely worth mentioning. 12:25, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose I'll agree with that, but I'm still a little iffy on assuming these countries to be correct. The fact that it's a fictional universe means that the real-life countries might not even exist in the game. Joe Copp 02:04, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's based on real life history and geography, it's never tried to input a made-up country, nor has it ever tried to take one out. 10:20, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * "Based on" does not mean "is". Unless we have some sort of proof that it is identical to the real world, I would not recommend assuming it is. Joe Copp 02:52, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well on the ISS Mission Earth looked like Earth. And all the locations have been put exactly where there are in real life. Asking for proof that CoD takes place on the same planet is getting a bit stupid. As stated earlier, cut files refer to missions in this area as Saudi Arabia. 11:48, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're still basing your findings on an assumption . Articles of encyclopedic nature should not revolve around potentially incorrect information, no matter how small a point it may be. Also, to suggest it takes place on another planet is absurd, but to imagine that IW would have created new countries to avoid tastelessness and inaccuracies is highly plausible. Joe Copp 01:56, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * And the "Unamed Middle Eastern country" is a page made on assumption. Because it never explicitly said a name we've assumed IW has tried to make its own country, but in a universe that is based on our own it is far more plausible that the locations are based on real life places than the wikis own assumption that it is its own country. 08:19, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then what would have been the point of not naming the country in the first place? Joe Copp 23:40, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a question to ask Infinity Ward. Perhaps it was simpler just to call the entire area "The Middle East" instead of giving exact locations. A lot of the nav points just give a general location as opposed to an exact name. Point being they never named it "Unnamed Middle Eastern Country", in fact they never called the entire area a country. Just because IW left that fact out we've assumed that the entire Middle East must be a country. 17:25, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Plausible gaff
One thing I noticed that looks off is War Pigs locater, this is quite far Northwest of The Bog's. I believe (this one doesn't have as much backing, so this one does need some faith put into it) this may of been done purely to make it look like you moved (During The Bog you have to head Northwest to meet up with War Pig). Now if we're willing to call that 1 location a gaff, then every other location makes sense. If not, then I still have all the above in-game locations and geography. 12:15, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah imo they probs did it just to show that they moved northwest 12:46, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Why not call it The Middle East (Modern Warfare series)? The game calls it The Middle East, why can't we refer to it like that instead of Unnamed Middle Eastern Country?  00:50, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Since all of the Modern Warfare locations are near exact to the locations that Sam found, I think it is safe to say the levels take place in those countries. Call of Duty has made multiple mistakes before with real life info, so it would make sense that the Bog to War Pig transition was just to simulate movement. As long as that is noted in the trivia of those articles, I support naming the countries of what Sam suggested. AntiScootaTwo (talk) 00:59, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Me too. The earlier comment was like a "Plan B"  01:09, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

I think I found another gaff, while we're on the subject. As Sam said, "The Bog" apparently takes place in Al Qunfudhah, Saudi Arabia. But according to the opening scene for the next mission, "Hunted", Jackson and co. have somehow moved to Iran. Sgt. S.S. (talk) 16:22, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * No gaff. At the end of The Bog + War Pig you're extracted via helicopter. 22:35, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not the transition you're thinking of. He's talking about the cutscene that separates The Bog and Hunted, while the team is digging in around the tank. 22:36, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * As in the one that's mentioned as the header of this section? Also he mentioned that it was the transition from The Bog's area to Hunted's area. 23:04, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Misunderstood Hunted as one of the Middle East missions, but anyway, that's just a general sweep of the Middle Eastern area, it doesn't say "Tracking..." like most of the other sat images do. 23:07, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not see what has changed since the last time we tried to do this. The inherent problem is that you are applying traits of our universe to that of the Call of Duty universe, which we know to be both different and fictional. Articles should be written from an in-universe perspective, so as to treat them as real and actual entities – otherwise, they are not particularly notable.

I appreciate the research that you have put into this, but all we are doing is speculating on geographic placement (something we know to be incorrect based on the immense transition in later levels, such as from the Altai Mountains to the Russia–Georgia border). As it stands, there is no source material from the series that would indicate where in the world these missions are taking place in, and in the grand scheme of things, the implication is that we will never know because it is not important. The closest we ever come is "a small, oil-rich country," which is an ironic description given the spread of Act I of Call of Duty 4.

The fact that it is unnamed should not really bother us. The ambiguity was intended and, in this case, is the most accurate, in-universe labeling of the country. 17:23, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The difference is in that forum I tried to name the entire region Kuwait, this time I've named at least 3 countries. Also your IRL Vs Notable debate is flawed in that many of our vehicles have not been explicitly named in game yet we use their real name, and none have been deleted for being unnotable. Also I do not understand your point about transitions for Russia seem mute here, since in those transitions they always had a helicopter or other form of transport, and in fact all of those places have a real geographical location set up. The very first Call of Duty's were set in World War 2, so we know Call of Duty is set in our world, and not some fictitious one, ergo we know real world locations are correct in terms of game. And again, there is source material in the game itself that calls certain cut levels "Saudi Arabia", yet we have no proof Infinity Ward wanted the entire place to be 1 country, nor that it no name was given for the sake of being ambiguous. And going back to the "Small country" quote, that doesn't exist, I don't know where it came from, but it doesn't. There is a quote in the game opening where you hear Marines have been given permission to enter a small country, and the first place you enter as the Marines is Kuwait, which is a small country, the entire area itself isn't small, in fact the entire Middle East covers 90% of Northern America, so it's hardly a "Small oil rich country". And finally it comes down to tracker grammar. Whenever we see the Marines it's "The Middle East", which shows it's just talking about the area and not a country, in a similar fashion it doesn't say "The Russia" or "The Germany". In short this time round I've put more evidence into this and have more backing than my last forum. Until someone can show me something from Infinity Ward telling me it's supposed to just be "Middle East" I feel we should use the real geographical locations. 19:35, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * I checked. The first place is the correct place. The other is the Tank going to the location of the mission, also the "camera" zooms in the The First Location, and the mission starts.

21:46, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The tank doesn't move. And as I've stated, no matter the actual location the tracker shows, it's wrong and just used to showcase movement by the character. Unless you want to vote for option 1 then it should not be an issue. 21:49, June 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * In the cutscene before Shock and Awe, they are showing the Shock and Awe location. Also, how do you know that the tank isn't moving?   21:58, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Written locations on Transcripts/Level Pages
Once we get the final agrement on the exact locations of the cities, feel free to apply them on the transcript [Titles] as well as the cooresponding levels' pages. EvErLoyaLEagLE (talk) 05:26, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Final vote
It's a bit word heavy, so using the old fashioned vote system is an easier way of getting a consensus, so there are 3 options available.
 * 1) Firstly we change the locations that I provided.
 * 2) Secondly we change the locations to those I provided, but consider War Pig's location a gaff on IWs side to showcase movement.
 * 3) Lastly we leave the name as is.