Forum:Evalutation of Chat's current state

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Hello CoD wiki people. I'm here to discuss something that's been on my mind for a while now, and that is the current state of the chat. As most of you know, I'm a rather laid back admin, letting rule breaks slip often...if they're by the regulars. I joke kick certain users on occassion, and I usually partake in particular discussion that is certainly not appropriate for the chat at all. My views on the status of this have changed. About a half a year ago, I would completely just say to abandon the rules and let people have fun, but now my opinion has changed. Chat is a lot like IRC, which itself isn't a bad thing. The bad thing is the fact we're too laid back, and certain behaviors are the norm, such as offensive jokes (racism, sexism, disasters and controverisal topics), talking about NSFW things (references to porn, making excessive detailed innnuendos, etc), and blatant, extreme amounts of UTP being broken. An example of such things can be seen here:

8:05 Azuris do some porn for the wiki
that will get us views
8:05 YellowLucario Now we're fucking talking
8:05 N7 me and kim k sex tape and i'll write cod wiki on my ass8:05 Azuris n7 i like it
8:05 N7 i should probably point out im going out in like 15 mins and am slightly refereshed
8:06 Azuris except her ass will be in the way
8:06 YellowLucario N7 take a banner down to Havant v Preston on Monday night
it's live on global TV
8:06 N7 my dad works in havant
8:06 Damac1214 Why don't we just film someone jacking off in front of a camera for ten minutes and at the end he just whispers CoD Wiki
8:06 N7 im 500lb azuris
8:06 Azuris oic
8:06 N7 im on it damac
8:06 Azuris well thats a lot of canvas
8:06 N7 NO I GOT IT DAMAC
what about we film this guy jackin off
and like
8:06 Azuris how about we draw a life size picture of kevin spacey on it too
8:06 N7 u think he watchin porn
then it turns out
he browsin cod wiki
8:07 YellowLucario HAHAHAHAHA
8:07 N7 "call of doot wiki: better than porn"
yah yah yah i am lorde
8:07 Damac1214 ^
You are now away.
8:08 N7 so whats goin on in cod wiki land
does it still suck

This is all good between a few people in MultiPM or something, but this isn't the case. There are users who are not comfortable with such topics, and also importantly, it really, really casts out new users. A new user joins, and they see discussion about drugs/sex, and in general something that is awkward and uncomfortable to walk in on to a chat when you're a new user. Firt impressions are important, and a lot of users probably choose to rarely ever come back, if ever again. Another important thing to note is that if a user joins, and is not intimdated/creeped out by the topic, and they try joining in, they'd most likely get banned themselves. And we all know how much drama that would cause. Because our chat is so less active than it used to be, a lot of users (previously including myself) feel "the hell with the rules, the wiki is dead". To be honest, the reason some have this mindset to even some degree is the reason why the wiki is becoming less and less active, especially chat-wise. So I propose that the rules get reinstated, for the benefit of the chat. No more discussion of the above topics, and if a user, even a regular, popular user, breaks these rules, they will get kicked and banned, just like before. No more NSFW conversations, no more bashing other users, (Though I wouldn't care if it was a little joke every once in a while, e.g. jokingly calling another user something like a "loser", as long it's clear they're joking.) no more offensive jokes, and no more joke kicks. I'm not trying to sound like a no-fun bad guy here, you all know damn well that this is not something I'd usually propose. But I feel we've all taken it too far, and it's damaged our chat. I just ask for us to be more civil, and more appropriate. I don't think it's too hard, there's tons of discussion. Music, games, whatever. It's not too hard, and if it is hard, then that's how sad we are. A chat where talking about such things is normal and accpetable, and without if, there's nothing to talk about? That's pathetic in my eyes. Besides, if we don't do this soon, it'll be too late. With AW just released, we should get at least a few new users, which means this is great time to try and turn everything around for the better. Give me shit if you want, I'm just stating how I feel about this. It needed to be said.

Opinions below, as usual. Madnessfan34537 http://i.imgur.com/lL5xjBH.png 21:03, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

Well, last night was certainly one of the best nights we've had on chat in a long time, and there's no arguing that. I've honestly never laughed so much, because y'know, that's my type of humour? And of course if the chat isn't funny and becomes too strict then obviously it's going to go stale and people are going to refrain from going on there to discuss matters with people. That's common sense. But definitely, I've seen some awful things on chat that have slid, including plenty of 9/11 jokes (which I always react badly to) and of course the ruling on really bad jokes needs to be made stricter. We really need to find the right balance for what the majority want without everything going absolutely mental.

Chat definitely needs to be more civil, as I've literally just picked up on. Chat can definitely be improved and if we as a wiki feel that making it more civil will make it better, then I'm all ears to these proposals. However I feel we have bonded as a community partially due to our offensive nature, especially the likes of N7 (who has recently returned to the chat) and to a lesser extent myself, who often post reasonably funny things that may be seen as offensive. I'm certain that even if we do make the chat a bit stricter, it will be for the better even though it may not be as funny, we do have to keep new members welcome and Madness is 100% right. Imagine a 13 year old joining chat for the first time, looking for information and bang, he sees a group of us talking about what porn film we should make next. It just isn't going to work, and IIRC somebody new joined but left without barely talking. That may have been the case unfortunately.

I know this probably made very little sense to you, but the bottom line is that we need to find the perfect balance guys. Keep chat funny, but be welcoming and please for the love of god let's not go overboard if we can help it.

I also agree with Firebird-'s comments. But hey, the rule for Wikia is that you have to be only 13... YELLOWLUCARIO ^TALK  21:33, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

We have gotten used to some users behaviour, and that's half the problem. We know what N7's behaviour is like, and for a while we simply left it be. But after time it got to a level where we were receiving more complaints than praise. Yes some users act in a certain way, but if we allow it to continue for too long without doing anything it spreads, and becomes the norm. By the time N7 got a ban for his behaviour it caused such a drama people tried to decrat me just for doing my job of enforcing our policies and listening to complaints. I understand people have their fun sometimes, and for the most part, I try to let it slide because it never really gets too bad. But we also need to understand if we keep going the way we're going we're going to have more users doing things that upset the majority than good users that actually care about the Wiki. Furthermore, if anyone outside the wiki saw that transcript how would it look on us? Sure some people would find it funny, but would they think we look professional? And how would it make our chat look? THe behaviour of our users is paramount, because it reflects us a whole. I know I have a reputation of being "overly strict", but that's just because I do my best to keep up with following policy, regardless of whom breaks the policy, or for what reason. I would have a made a forum like this myself, were I not worried that people would simply dismiss it as me being overly strict. I'm aware of what people think of me, and I know what I can and can't do because of it. Giving out warnings to some people actually takes asking users for back up because sometimes people react aggressively, or their friends try to defend them. What we need to do is look at where we're going, and look at where we cam from, see the issue, and return to what we had. If we keep goign the way we are, I fear we risk losing users, in fact some users seem to spend more time PMing me then talking in chat that they find it that uncomfortable, and some users who sued to be regulars, just don't seem to join any more. And if a user as laid back as Madnessfan has seen this as an issue, it's clear sign something is wrong.

Crazy sam10 • Talk

21:46, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Well, this is a chat in the wiki about a 18+ rated game. I think we are mature enough to be free and have such NSFW conversations, but I just think they happen too often. I've seen new users back out because of the topic in chat, no wonder it's slower than it was an year ago. We could work on a policy limiting these conversations, maybe?  FireBird-_{Pinkie Pie!}  21:25, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

The rating is also dependant on area. It's R16 in NZ and Wikia has a base age requirement of 13. Meaning maybe limiting around to R15/16? Rift Cyra Puppysmiles 21:28, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I mean. We can have these convos sometimes, and I should've noted that in my proposal. But it's just that it happens so often. Madnessfan34537 http://i.imgur.com/lL5xjBH.png 21:34, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

We might be an 18+ rated game Wiki, but that isn't an excuse for the crudeness we show in our behaviour. The Fallout Wiki used to use the exact same excuse for their behaviour all the time, and that behaviour was one of the reasons why I left. Just because the game we represent might be 18+ doesn't mean we can start talking about things such as that. I may be 21 at the stage of writing this, but that doesn't mean all I think about all day is porn and telling people to fuck off because it's funny. Age is irrelevant in the case of civility. I've had countless complaints in the past about the behaviour of users and the content being posted. And we've even lost users because of it. I do not believe the 18+ excuse works. Just because we represent an 12+ game means nothing. We're allowed to swear, but overdoing it ends in a block. A game rated 18 may contain nudity, but posting nudity is a violation of ToS. The age rating of the game we represent is not an indication of how we should act or what is acceptable. What is acceptable is acting in a manner where everyone is happy, and right now, everyone is not happy.

Crazy sam10 • Talk

21:35, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention CoD is an 18+ game for violence, not sexual content. There is a pretty significant difference, especially for most Americans. Conqueror of all Zombies (talk) 21:44, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Penis/vagina/boob emblems disagree. And so does the kid telling me he's gonna have sex with my mom. --Azuris(talk) 22:04, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Because every penis/vagina/boob emblem is made by an American, and every kid who says he's going to have sex with my mom is an American too, and they are representative of everyone to live in the US. Conqueror of all Zombies (talk) 22:42, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Comment/Opinion - *ahem*

• "There are users who are no comfortable with such topics . . . casts out new users." - I would like to use this as an opportunity to say that this wiki is about a mature game, implying that most people that visit this wiki - and by extension, chat - are either adults or capable of handling themselves in an adult environment. Since everybody in the chat is either one of those two, they should be able to have an adult conversation (or use adult jokes) between themselves. If a new user were to feel intimidated or whatever, then odds are that they shouldn't be in the chat anyways.
• The reason some have this mindset . . . is the reason why the wiki is becoming less active." - Not at all! The fact of the matter is, when the wiki was most popular chat-wise is when most of the highly active users were between 14 and 16 years old. These users have grown up now, and are much busier in real life than they used to be. This also affects a majority of new users as well - it's hard to be active on the wiki when you have to manage school, work, and other crap as well.
• ". . . rules get re-instated."/other stuff - From what I can tell, the rules that the chat should follow are still being enforced. Which means that anything excessively breaking either UTP or DBAD will still result in either a kick or ban. Again, we are all (mostly) adults here - we can handle the occasional NSFW conversation or offensive jokes, because that's what adults do. These discussions are just a bit of fun, and have done nothing to "damage" our chat. With AW released, we still talk about the game. We still talk about music, or other games, or news, or whatever the hell we want - because we are adults.

I hope I've addressed most of your concerns. I'm not disregarding them or anything, but I'm just giving you a reason for most users' behavior and inactivity. --Azuris(talk) 21:54, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Like I stated in my above topic. Just because we represent an 18+ game doesn't give us free reign to to talk about anything remotely sexual. I may be 18+ myself, but that doesn't mean I want to see in chat a joke about someone whacking off. some adults make jokes like that, but not all adults. Hell, I've heard children make jokes about masturbation and sexually related things, because it's crude humour. It's fine on occasion and at the right level, it's what makes shows like Robot Chicken and Family guy so popular. But when you star taking it overboard, like in the above transcript, then it becomes an issue. Yes, some people may have found that funny, But I personally didn't, the entire conversation just made me cringe, and I couldn't have said anything to make it stop, because I'm pretty certain the people involved in the conversation would have just turned on me for being "too strict". The game may be rated M for mature, or 18+, but that's not a free pass to start dishing out insults, or openly joking about masturbation, or anything sexually related. Fallout wiki tried the same excuse, and while better now, I once witnessed someone in their chat comment how they enjoyed swallowing their own semen, and no one there did anything. Chat rules so far only seem to be getting used on the users that can be banned. Attempting to quote them against anoher chat mod or admin results in aggression much of the time. If you want an anecdote of that, just look at the tie I gave N7 a ban from chat. The game may be rated M for mature, and what we say in chat might also receive that same rating, but that doesn't mean what we are saying is mature.

Crazy sam10 • Talk

22:04, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

And I agree 75%. But, for the majority of people, sex jokes are funny - even poop jokes are fucking hilarious - because they are crude humor. While I understand being unamused by some of the discussions in chat - being involved in those conversations is not required by any means. Trying to severely limit what people can talk and joke about is more of a turn off than it is welcoming. People are different, and they have different senses of humor. Placing strict rules on some of the conversations that people have is like banning r/nsfw, or r/circlejerk - it's unnecessary. --Azuris(talk) 22:20, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Well, discussions like that would have likely been banned from the get go, it's only now they're prevalent. I don't mind a level of crude humour, in good doses, I can find it funny also. But the above transcript is a good show of what can happen when it goes too far. And from past experiences, simply asking it t stop, can sometimes lead to a hostile response for "ruining a joke". Tightening the rules does not necessarily mean removing all forms of crude humour, but, it will mean that on the occasions it does get out of hand we can step in with knowing we have our rules to back it up, or the people doing it, can look at what their doing, realise it might be going too far and pull back a bit. Also, While I'm not a Reddit user, I'm willing to believe r/nsfw and r/circlejerk are just thread types on Reddit, and can be avoided by users if that's not what they want. But we only have 1 chat, and if we tailor it for just the one type of user and tell others to simply avoid it, we risk losing users who feel at unease in the chat. The issue here is, we need to find a new middle ground, we need to make sure when it gets out of hand, we lower it, but at the same time, we need to make sure we aren't overly enforcing rules on the new users, because to be honest, if that convo listed above happened by new users, they would likely have been banned from chat. What we need is basically a complete reset to the chat, where we put everyone on the same level, and everyone gets the same treatment from policies, to ensure no one takes it too far, and we're not warning people that have yet to go far enough. I'm willing to let the odd crude joke slide, but we need to make sure that the jokes are not getting out of hand, or else we risk alienating people.

Crazy sam10 • Talk

22:35, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately with this issue there are two sides of the same coin. I agree that taking things too far (which is highly subjective anyways) can be uncomfortable for users, but if those users are in the minority then there shouldn't be that big of an issue at all. If it happens only on occasion than people can just ignore it if they so choose. Everybody on the chat is equal, but that doesn't mean that they are the same and should be treated the same regardless of their sense of humor and personality. That doesn't mean that you should be yelled at for stepping in and telling people to calm down if, say, an inappropriate conversation is actually interfering with a legitimate discussion - but the extent of punishment (or any other reaction) towards any inappropriate conversation is, and should be, highly situational and also carries the risk of alienating new and older users. --Azuris(talk) 22:55, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

The reason the wiki has become less active is because we've made it a pain in the ass to actually Edit here with our plethora of draconian rules and less than user friendly policies. Saying porn or ass in chat has nothing to do with it. KλT 22:02, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

What rules are draconian and what policies are less than user friendly exactly? Conqueror of all Zombies (talk) 22:42, November 9, 2014 (UTC)